A call for Bonfireside Chat responses: Sekiro End-Game
Added 2019-09-13 16:50:50 +0000 UTCHi there! This is a call for your thoughts on the endgame portion of Sekiro... basically everything we covered since taking Owl down on the roof. Additionally, we'll take any stray wrapup thoughts you might have about the game as a whole. The deadline for responses is Monday, September 16.
Please leave the responses as a comment on this Patreon post. As always, please be brief so we can get through as many people as possible. Additionally, try to be novel and specific, we want your experiences and not a generalized review of the game.
We appreciate you taking part in this season of the show, and we look forward to having you around for our continuing coverage of soulslike games until Elden Ring comes out. Up next is Death's Gambit, along with the remaining Musical Identity episodes.
- K
Comments
Sekiro is a step in the right direction for quality of From games. The crushing difficulty isn't my favorite, but i love the atmosphere and story of this game. If i could change one thing it would be to have more equipment and weapons instead of the same weapon. Super pumped for Elden Ring!
Ethan Preheim
2019-09-17 00:47:13 +0000 UTCI just couldn’t resist Sekiro after beating all of the Soulsborne games. It definitely took a lot of getting used to, what with Sekiro’s dodge being much less useful than deflecting or other forms of evasion. However, after a few dozen hours, I was able to develop a new skill set that kept the game from being too rage-inducing. I mean, my left index finger is now perhaps my strongest from the tactical/frantic tapping of the left shoulder button I had to master (the only finger that might rival it is my middle, which was used to great effect when I was frustrated with Seven Spears and Sword Saint). But, mechanical differences aside, Sekiro ended up being another FromSoft game that checked most of the boxes the Souls games do: interesting and beautiful environments, fun traversal, and cool to grotesque enemy design. I want to feel like I’m going on a journey and traversing time and space when I play these games, which the level design really nails, especially in the mid-late game. Fountainhead Palace was truly mesmerizing. I sat at the first view of the waterfall for a solid 5 minutes, just drinking in the view and thinking about what wonders and challenges might await me. I, like Gary, am usually loath to grind, but I didn’t mind spending a couple of hours farming in the center area with the mist nobles, simply because it allowed me to get to know every nook and cranny of the beautifully decrepit temple. I played my first Dark Souls very late (after the Ringed City was already out) and have been a loyal follower of Bonfireside Chat since then. I’ve only ever played FromSoft’s games long after they had been scoured by the internet and had all of their secrets uncovered. I am so glad I got to take the journey alongside you and your listeners this time. Thank you so much for the entertainment and insight that enrich the already trench-deep experiences these games provide.
Jared Mogen
2019-09-16 17:22:00 +0000 UTCSo much of my Sekiro experience is closely tied with my first foray into the SLACK. I'm a complete novice when it comes to anything chat/social media related (I think at one point i even asked the community "how do i do this" and Julia said "just don't be a dick", which is about right). I felt so welcomed by the community, and it was great to engage and discuss boss strategies, lore implications, and of course, "Sneks". It absolutely heightened my overall feeling toward the game . The positive vibes even encouraged me to send in some original music to the "ducks doing stuffs" channel. Although i have dipped out since, I am super pumped to get back in for the Death's Gambit discussion. Kudos to the both of you for fostering such a positive community! Not an easy task in 2019 :)
Dave Tese
2019-09-16 14:58:32 +0000 UTCI actually beat the sword saint in 4 tries, but I had previously beaten owl in Hirata Estates and the Demon of Hatred, both of which took me at least two-dozen tries each. I actually relied very heavily on the flame shield prosthetic to survive the demon's flame aoe's...finally got some use out of that damn thing! Also, realizing that as long as you stay up in his business, he won't use his absurd dash ability was very satisfying. By the time I got to sword saint it was kind of a joke by comparison to the slog fest that is Owl pt.2
Eric
2019-09-16 14:01:00 +0000 UTCI beat Sword Saint by abusing the most powerful tool in the game: The pause button. Once I learned I could counter the diving lunge, Genichiro was much less difficult. I got the first phase down, but that phase often took a long time. Pausing between the second and third phases helped me come down a bit and focus on not getting shocked to death. The lack of a pause button in other Soulsborne games felt like a hostile design decision, so I want to pause for a moment and praise the pause button.
Ian Derk
2019-09-16 03:37:14 +0000 UTCQuick comment on prosthetics--I got quite a bit of use from the flame vent plus oil. Some bosses and mini-bosses I had a lot of trouble finding opportunities to reduce their vitality, and therefore their posture recovery. Combined with oil, the flame vent will catch an enemy on fire in a single, unbockable attack. The initial damage, plus hits while they're stunned, plus damage over time combines to a decent chunk of health. And you can try it several times. I liked the atmosphere and gameplay of fighting off the final assasult against Ashina by the Interior Ministry, but I feel like the relationship between Sekiro and the Ashina soldiers ended up really muddled. After defeating Genichiro the first time, the castle is still teeming with soldiers loyal to him that will attack you on sight. Yet Kuro stays there--no wonder he ends up getting abducted. Then in the final assault, an Ashina solider begs you to help them, but no matter how many times I saved their asses, they turned right around and fought me. The reward for this is the worst boss battle in the game, the Demon of Hatred. This is a game focused on precise deflects. But here is an enemy where, far away, you get pummelled by fire attacks that do damange even when you block. And close up, has completely unreadable hit boxes. And unlike Souls bosses, I couldn't say, "This is bullshit; I'll just summon." (Thinking of you, Sister Friede.) I normally beat all the bosses in From games, but after getting dead-angled by stomps the hundredth time, I eventually decided to make an exception. Maybe I'll research strategies and go back to it later. I certainly had fun with many parts of the game, but there was a lot of frustration along with it.
Paul Thacker
2019-09-16 02:57:35 +0000 UTCEvery soulsy From releases seems rather incapable of building on things that worked previously, and instead throws out ideas that had potential, while doubling down on things that weren't good ideas to begin with. Sekiro was rather fun for me, in spite of how trying to placate the challenge hogs ruined the game's balance. I really wish they'd stop pursuing some mythical aspect of difficulty that's unnecessarily frustrating but still possible; if Elden Ring is overly committed to satisfying the gatekeepers I may just avoid it altogether.
Colt
2019-09-16 02:53:03 +0000 UTCI still feel that DS2 is the best game I've ever played. Love sekiro to pieces though
Nick Hunter
2019-09-16 00:51:01 +0000 UTCSide note: I recently replayed DS2 and I have to say that I appreciate the fact that Sekiro’s difficulty lies primarily in boss combat. Dealing with the constant gank squads impeding exploration in DS2 made progress a bit of a slog. Now if only Sekiro had any loot worth finding...
Devin
2019-09-16 00:46:44 +0000 UTCSekiro definitely has been very divisive among the from player base. It’s strange that the sekiro subreddit is full of people that will tell you that this is froms best work, and then contrast that with everyone’s responses here on Patreon which seem to be overwhelmingly negative. I feel like the learning curve was very steep, as I don’t think Sekiro really clicked until Owl 2.0, which was a major sticking point for me. However, after that fight I breezed through the rest of the game, Demon and Sword Saint included. In conclusion I was disappointed in the lack of overall weirdness, build variety, and lore depth of the game. But the combat system, in retrospect, is definitely an improvement I think. Sekiro is lacking in a lot of ways, but I’m thinking that its purpose is more to serve as a stepping stone from Souls gameplay to whatever Elden Ring will be (which I’m hoping will be a glorious marriage of Souls depth and the crisp combat of Sekiro).
Devin
2019-09-16 00:43:07 +0000 UTCI really like Sekiro, but compared to the rest of the souls series it seemed a little bland. One of the reasons I am drawn to these games is how weird and wild they are. I'm always so excited to see each new area, each new boss because it could be ANYTHING. When you consider things like the Demon of Song or Ludwig, nothing in Sekiro really has that same oomph. The first thing you see in Dark Souls is the Stray Demon pacing around in his dungeon. The first level of bloodborne has CRUCIFIED FLAMING WEREWOLVES (and that is actually kind of tame compared to the rest of the game). Sekiro is mostly dudes with swords. Which is fine, they make for good fights but lack some of the jaw-dropping, fist-pumping awesomeness that their other games have. Sekiro has some weird stuff sure, but they tend to be giant animals (big snake, big ape, big centipedes). The Fountainhead Palace is an amazing, weird and beautiful level and I wish more of the game was like that. It seems From wanted this game to be a bit more grounded and that is totally fine (again I really liked it). But I guess I want more headless immortal apes and less General Something or Other and Commander I Don't Remember. Finally quick thought on Sword Saint: This boss nearly made me quit the game with how long and frustrating the fight is. I sincerely did not like it for the first few dozen attempts. I reached a point where something clicked in to place and I was hitting every Mikiri, balancing parries and counterattacks without wasted time in between and nailing every lightning reversal. The last few tries before I beat him felt great. I only wish there wasn't so much bullshit in the way to get to where the fight feels good. Sword Saint feels like a Maria fight if you had to defeat the Living Failures first every single time.
Matt DiTomaso
2019-09-15 18:20:00 +0000 UTCIf there's one more thing I can definitively say about Sekiro, it's Ichimonji Double. That's it.
Sid Menon
2019-09-15 15:58:55 +0000 UTCI know it's been brought up many times that Sekiro's loot system is unfulfilling. I could not agree more, and often times the only reason I sought out any loot at all was to just progress the story and collect beads and junk for the achievements. Nothing you win is much of a game-changer beyond the Mibu breathing technique and some skills, but these things will never compare to looting a shiny and getting a weird new great hammer to try out -- completely making you question your build trajectory. In a meta sense, the entire endgame truly feels like its own equivalent of Sekiro.txt loot, so much so that after beating Genichiro and Sword Saint Isshin, I just find myself wishing that there were more snake stealth sections instead.
gwenny_
2019-09-15 05:43:59 +0000 UTCSekiro is the first From RPG since the very first time I summited Dark Souls that I doubted my ability to see the quest through. The Sword Saint is SO HARD and my progress against him was so erratic. Sometimes, I'd reliably get to phase 3 before getting wiped out. Then, I'd only get to phase 2 a couple of times. Then, somehow I'd get killed by Genichiro and think, "Am I getting worse at this game? What is happening here." I watched YouTube walkthroughs to learn what to do, but like when I quit fighting games a decade ago, my hands just could not deliver on what my mind knew was possible. I did finally strike a killing blow against Ishin, but I think this is my absolute limit, my friends. If From continues on this trajectory, I'll have to set down my swords and just listen to the stories of horror and daring rather than live them. I don't want to do that. I hope very much that Elden Ring focuses more on mystery and discovery that was absent and these intense demands of execution are left to character action, shooters, and fighting games. Finally, I was intrigued by the idea of meaningful stealth in a From game, but found stealth in Seikiro to be too modal. Could we not have had at least a few bosses that had both combat and stealth solutions? I don't know. It was fun, but I'm going back to Bloodborne.
Alexander McConnell
2019-09-15 01:59:43 +0000 UTCSekiro's endgame is the most uneven landing to any of From's recent games. The highs are high but the lows are almost poisonous. It's like being served a bowl of spectacularly tasty chicken wings but the sauce is 1% dog sick. As much as I love 99% of this, I'm not sure I can ever fully see past the vom: -The Demon of Hatred is a great concept (I love an ally gone bad) but certain mechanics feel very broken. - Sword Saint is a wonderful fight but becomes a sustained kick in the balls because of its heinous, gratuitous length and lack of checkpoints. - And the endings, they pick at all kinds of interesting concepts but at least one is so fiddly to get that I wonder how anyone could ever navigate it without a guide. "Here's your favourite ice-cream. Unfortunately I am going to slap you hard in the face every time you take a spoonful." ...sorry for the food analogies. I love Sekiro, but it's such a mixed bag that I could never recommend it unreservedly. This is typified by the endgame.
Paul Duffus
2019-09-14 21:23:12 +0000 UTCStray thought that doesn't really mesh with the above: a pet peeve of mine in games is weapons not really feeling like they should in terms of damage output. In Sekiro during the levels you have a sword. Generally people die pretty quickly when hit with a sword if they're not wearing armor. Once you a hit a boss fight...it's like you don't have a sword anymore. You have...a wooden practice sword? A stick? A wet noodle? In a lot of the boss fights it takes so much careful blocking, positioning, countering etc. to get in a good clean hit. And you're reward for it is 3% of the boss' total HP. Doesn't feel good!
Rob Tunstall
2019-09-14 15:57:53 +0000 UTCIt's hard to gather my thoughts on Sekiro. I don't really disagree with any of the discourse about it being too difficult, or difficult in a way that isn't enjoyable. I agree that its excesses highlight some of From's worst tendencies as a developer. When I realized that the final boss was a four phase affair, I wanted to stop playing in protest, for fear that completing the game would be tacit approval of a five phase end boss in a future game. But Sekiro is also the only game I've ever Platinumed. It's the only game I've even come close to Platinuming. Trophies have never been a concern of mine, I just kept playing the game. Over and over. Part of it might be that the combat clicked for me in a way that the dodge rolling based combat in Bloodborne or Dark Souls (depending on your build) never did. I can't beat a lot of the late bosses in Bloodborne solo. I've never beaten Fume Knight. I beat Artorias and Kalameet with heavy armor and a giant shield. I never *really* figured that aspect of those games out, though I loved them. But blocking, parrying, and countering in Sekiro made sense to me. We always say Souls finds your weaknesses, but quite unexpectedly in Sekiro I found a strength I didn't know I had.
Rob Tunstall
2019-09-14 15:40:13 +0000 UTCHello! I'm not the kind of person that plays From games solely for their difficulty but I really liked the final boss. It felt epic, and that was a different feeling compared to other final bosses (in From games) where I felt many things but epic was never one of them. I'm not the biggest fan of multiple health bars in boss fights, with some meaningful exceptions (see Ornestein/Smough) but I guess at this point I came to terms with that in From games. Still, the first phase shouldn't be a thing after you beat it. I do recognize that this boss may encapsulate many (if not all) the things some people might dislike about the game, and quite frankly I'd have probably felt the same way if the game didn't click during the Genichiro fight, where I think I realized how the game wanted to be played, with emphasis specifically on the blocking aspect. In my humble opinion the game does a terrible job teaching you that, and my Souls muscle memory didn't help. The initial stretch Ogre/General/Serpent was shockingly bad in terms of gameplay, difficulty and teaching players. Once the blocking aspect clicked the game became much more enjoyable and fun. In a way it became predictable. Prosthetic tools and skills are probably my major complain, not because they are intrinsically bad but because they rarely felt necessary, and given the massive number of them in the game it almost feels like a waste. Generally speaking, while I think Sekiro is a very good game, I found myself not caring about it as much as I did (and still do!) for Souls and Bloodborne. I think part of it is due to the game being rooted so heavily in Japanese culture that at times it was hard for me to fully grasp the meaning of the world around me (see what a Carp could mean for example) but also the lack of meaningful rewards for exploring, not only items but also lore-wise. I'm still glad From did it, it's clear they wanted to make it and I'm happy they tried something new. Fountain Palace is a wonderful place and definitely one of the best in From games on my list. I just hope they stop going down the ''harder! harder! harder!'' route and go back a little to what made Souls so special. I'm also ready for another From RPG. Thanks for the season!
mattia malvezzi
2019-09-14 14:01:03 +0000 UTCI went into the final few boss fights fully expecting to get frustrated and give up after hearing so much about them being nightmares. But to my surprise something just clicked! I got into a real flow state where I certainly died a lot, but where the feeling of slowly getting better kept me going with minimal swearing in between attempts. At least once I realized the fire cone attack from the demon of hatred could be blocked by the umbrella! In the end the methodical takedown of the demon and the sword saint ended up being some of my favorite moments in a from game in a very long time.
Patrik
2019-09-14 12:10:37 +0000 UTCI know I have a few unpopular opinions on the late game bosses as I like most of them. I believe how we play games has an impact on how we feel about them. Which is why I have a love/hate relationship with the Demon of Hatred. The sculptor is your blacksmith, your first friend, and a cautionary tale all wrapped up in one enigma burrito. When the interior ministry attacks Ashina I didn't care for the castle, I cared about seeing the sculptor one last time before I saved Kuro. Only to have that shattered when the sculpture wasn't there. I first I thought he was taken my the ministry, until I found the burnt branch that was your first grappling point of the game. The Revelation that he was consumed by hatred and didn't want you to see it hit me like a train. Then you actually fight him and all that love is turned into despair. For Sword Saint, I cannot in good faith say that this is a good boss fight. I beat him in one go in NG+3 and was so surprised i thought it was a fluke. So, I tried and succeeded on my first go in NG+4. despite the fact that I accomplished that, I could not describe how to beat him in detail nor explain how I beat him. I think that is a red flag. I can't appreciate the victory. I also feel as if Sword Saint is lacking the narrative weight that should come with the final boss. Especially when compared to demon of hatred and Owl 2.0. Owl 2.0 is my favorite boss in this entire game. This is entirely subjective as I was abused by my foster father and it ended abruptly with a fistfight. Words cannot describe the cathartic release I felt when presented to vicariously live through this moment in another's life. Also I feel as if this boss fight as designed almost perfectly. It obviously wasn't made for people with color blindness in mind and I think that's sad. Otherwise, complete mastery of this fight is rewarded in dividends. There is a counter to every single one of his attacks and pulling them all off one after another demonstrate sekiro's mastery as he surpasses his first mentor. I enjoy his second phase, where he gains teleport and fireball randomly. I like how pretty his owl familiar is. I hope Elden Ring provides multiple viable builds.
Cthulhu R'lyeh Flatagan
2019-09-14 08:22:59 +0000 UTCAt the encouragement of my brother Daniel, another Duckfeed patron, I bought Sekiro so we could learn the game and it's systems together. We live on the other side of the world from each other and it's always great being able to compare notes and see how the other is finding a game. Sekiro was my first From game, and thanks to loving it so much I've played through the Dark Souls Trilogy and Bloodborne (which might be my favourite game ever now). The joys of jolly co-operation and PvP followed and now bro and I are co-oping through the Dark Souls 2 DLC. As well as all that, I ended up finding you guys (another recommendation from Daniel), all your other shows and the lovely community in the Slack. So I'll always remember this game very fondly, not to mention I still think it is - overall - absurd amounts of fun. I'll be day 1 for Elden Ring. Thanks guys for a great season of the show and for being a place where this great developer's games can be discussed with different perspectives and approaches.
Jon Cheetham
2019-09-14 07:03:30 +0000 UTCI only bought Sekiro after watching a let's play of it and the first thing I did was to install an easy mode mod that made me take 50% less damage. I never regretted this decision and even added another mod that let me use an op buff to power through frustrating bosses. I ended up 100% Sekiro in the end, largely because the gameplay is just so fun, and I do think it's a good game overall. It's just that the bad parts are really bad and this focus on difficulty makes me worry about the direction FromSoft is headed.
Dr. Teatime
2019-09-14 06:35:04 +0000 UTCOn my first playthrough, the final boss and DoH scared me so much that I put down the game for days and didn't play it. Ultimately, these bosses are fair, but to what end? The DLC for Bloodborne was about 1.5X as hard as the main game. DS3 was about 1.5X as hard as Bloodborne. And we know how hard DS3's DLC was. I consider Sekrio's main game (with these ending bosses) to be twice as hard as DS3's DLC. What will Sekiro's DLC be like? Let's say only 1.5X as hard. What will Elden Ring be? Just take this principle to it's logical conclusion. In my opinion, FromSoftware is going too far.
John Nelson
2019-09-14 05:28:55 +0000 UTCOne hour into Sekiro, I was extremely frustrated and considered refunding the game. I left it and came back repeatedly, usually for 10 minutes at a time, before putting it down on the first night and thinking "FromSoft has gone too far. This isn't fun, or challenging, it's just spiteful." Fast forward 50 hours and in hindsight, I have no regrets about the game. I consciously remember how many times I got upset at the game and put it down for the night, and I even have the emotional memory of those moments of despair. Despite this, for me, the satisfaction of learning and mastering this game paid for those frustrations in the end. You probably won't believe me, but I actually found Demon of Hatred to be one of the least frustrating and most fun bosses in the game - I would go so far as to say it was a better fight than maybe any boss in Dark Souls 3, on a mechanical level at least. It's all about learning to use your jump and your run to dance around this giant flaming monkey and his angry tai chi (I am aware tai chi is chinese). It's about maintaining a distance from him until he's left himself vulnerable, taking the opportunity to mash your face in his bulbous groin, and running again once he decides to leap into the air. Also, the fireballs he sends at you appear to be praying monks, which is just rad. Isshin is a different story. In the end, my final battle was satisfying, but it might be the only boss I beat and didn't think "This made me better in a meaningful way". I must have thrown myself at him a good 60 odd times before I finally made it through, each failure due to a single slightly poorly timed parry that got me caught in combo that could have killed me twice over. Arbitrary delays before swings, lightning fast swings that remove reaction and require remembering, frankly unfair reach, and just far too much damage all add up to make... a sorta okay fight when you get it right. Okay. When I finally finished the game, I sat my controller down on my desk and watched as the custscenes played out, satisfied with the experience I got. Once I was returned to the title screen, I calmly moved down the list to "quit game" and promptly uninstalled. Thank you for the experience, Sekiro. I will never be back.
Fenreliania
2019-09-14 03:07:30 +0000 UTCI loved the fight with Sword Saint Isshin. While certainly difficult, I never found the fight to ascend to level of frustration of other bosses in both Sekiro and other From games. Despite the number of stages in the fight, he loses posture relatively quickly making getting through each stage not as much of a time tax as one would think when compared to other three stage bosses in the game (*cough* Demon of Hatred). His moves although varied when viewed in aggregate, tend to be limited to a specific stages of the fight, making it easy after a few attempts to come up with strategies for dealing with each of them. One particularly helpful strategy during his 1st stage was to wait for him to charge up his Ashina Cross attack. If you approach him after he sheaths his sword he will instead attempt to bash you with the hilt and follow up with a Perilous Sweep which you block and jump respectively to punish his posture repeatedly. His second stage is easily the most challenging part of the fight….and where I have two major gripes with the fight. One: his goddamn semi-automatic pistol. Why does SWORD Saint Isshin have a Glock stuffed into his kimono? I must admit the first time he whipped out his Colt 45 like Japanese John Wick and shot me repeatedly in the face I couldn’t help but laugh….but his anachronistic ability to punish you at range when you are trying to heal ended up being a huge annoyance in a fight that was challenging enough without the inexplicable gun-fu. Secondly, it becomes really hard to distinguish Isshin from the field of flowers that are now blowing around from the wind. Sure it looks cool, but when you are dealing with a skinny white and blue robed asshole who can attack you with either a spear, a sword or that stupid gun it would have been nice to have had an environment that contrasted better with the Lord of Ashina. Overall, it’s a great fight, but not a perfect one.
MikAC108
2019-09-14 01:02:01 +0000 UTCAfter reading some of these other responses I've managed to reflect a bit more. I guess it is the fucking length of the later boss fights that's such a drag. A surprise second phase can be fun as a "gotcha" moment but From have been leaning SO hard into this with Dark Souls 3 on. Like, if it's that moment when you've just put the controller down and then you have to "oh fuck it's still going", fumble with the controller, and manage to narrowly squeak a victory: that's brilliant! But when you Know that there's going to be another fucking phase but have no idea how to pace yourself for it and might as well just die: that's a real shitter. So yeah, make things hard, From, but let me do appreciable damage, and let me know exactly what the fuck it is that I'm doing.
Lewis Shaw
2019-09-14 00:49:17 +0000 UTCWhile planning my honeymoon to Japan I've been using it as an excuse to jump into some more "Japanese" games like Yakuza, Persona,etc. Though indisputably more straightforward than Dark Souls, the strange, magical FROMness of Sekiro's world was still an interesting, alternative way to get an impressionistic feel for an unfamiliar mythology, culture, and folklore. I know almost nothing about Japanese culture, so experiencing it more directly through the purposefully fogged-up lens of one of my favorite devs was great. I'm also certain that it will color the things I see on my upcoming trip. Side note: thanks for all your hard work, I listen in from China and it helps me feel less disconnected from the wider world!
Alex
2019-09-14 00:37:36 +0000 UTCI have a hard time delineating my thoughts on Owl (Father) and Ishin Sword Saint. I was so incredibly frustrated with them, and hated them so much, but I did beat them, and have beat them subsequently. Have I been Stockholmed into liking them? Do I think they're good? When I think of my favourite Souls bosses, I think of Artorias and Fume Knight. But I died so many times to those guys, just throwing myself at them again and again and again and again. And I LOVE them now. Were the Sekiro ones more bullshit? Do I just have less time for that kind of thing nowadays? The Sekiro ones feel harder but the process was exactly the same. And I probably died to Artorias more. Maybe just the landscape has changed, Dark Souls happened, and my appetite isn't as bottomless as I'd thought?
Lewis Shaw
2019-09-14 00:31:48 +0000 UTCI'd definitely echo all the more negative things people have already noted here. I think ultimately after I'd finished all I did of Sekiro my main thoughts remain how Gary had summed it up best early on in his Sekiro play when he stated something to the effect of "the feeling of finally getting as good at playing the game is it wants you to and finally beating whatever boss is a giant wall for you currently just doesn't undo or make me forget the 50+ tries or all the time it took me to get to that part. And after Sekiro it also put the final nail in the coffin for me on From in general in that it slightly sours Elden Ring for me in that I definitely won't be buying it on day one or when it is still brand new. I'm only cautiously optimistic about From's future games. I'll wait and see what the general talk around them says and wait for much more info about what the game is actually like. I have been feeling significant diminishing returns with each of From's content. Which is a bummer because there are a lot of parts I really did like about and enjoy in Sekiro, but overall its not something I'll ever play again and the boss battles just marred it so much for me that even after playing through on new game+ and having a much easier time on my subsequent go arounds with the harder bosses (Genichiro, Owl, etc.) I just still didn't enjoy it as much as I could have. Also fuck Sword Saint Isshin forever, that boss is fucking bullshit garbage. I hope Elden Ring changes my mind, and regardless I really look forward to your future BFC stuff.
Limowreck
2019-09-13 23:23:01 +0000 UTCHey guys, first off, thanks for another season of BFSC. It was great to listen along to another season of what got me hooked on your podcasts in the first place. So, Sekiro. I was one of those guys who felt like From needed to take a break after the last Souls, so seeing them do something even a little different was welcome. The mostly-straightforward storytelling was a nice change of pace, and seeing them get vertical with world design via grappling hook was fantastic. Unfortunately From leaned too hard into the misguided reputation they have for "hard" games. There's a huge gap between what's required to survive in the levels and what's necessary to defeat the bosses, and these divergent skillsets are a big design problem. Genichro and Owl were both too tough for my taste (especially given that you have no real build options, etc) but I quit the game at Sword Saint Isshin, making Sekiro the first From game I've ever walked away from before rolling credits. On top of that, the lame rewards for combing levels, prosthetics that feel irrelevant and a sloppy narrative with multiple confusing flavors of immortality all add up to a game that feels like it needs more time in the oven. I'm glad they tried something different, but this is far from their best work.
Brad Gallaway
2019-09-13 22:41:21 +0000 UTCThe last boss being a massive irritating pain in the ass aside I think the interesting thing about the "good" endings of Sekiro is how incredibly small the story ends up being for a game that just had you collect tears from a giant tree dragon god. The invasion of Ashina, mist nobles, immortal centipedes and the like are all obstacles in Wolf's way but not necessarily problems he feels like he needs to solve in any complete fashion. Wolf saves his master, aids him in his quest to sever immortality and is done with it. The rest is for someone else to handle.
David
2019-09-13 22:11:56 +0000 UTCI'll give a different take on what I think went wrong with SS Isshin - From's insistence on treating every boss equally. That is to say, that dying results in the entire thing starting from scratch. Weirdly, this has never really been a natural fit for the Souls games due to their "continuous worldstate" as opposed to regular game saves which effectively sets the "timeline" back, but recently I've been thinking more and more about how From are stuck in this way of doing things when they could achieve a lot of cool stuff by switching it up. It could have been used to balance fights like Nameless King and Friede better while still maintaining their different phases since they're conceptually cool. It could have been used in reverse with Champion Gundyr, that he remains in "serious mode" when you come back because he remembers, and knows that you're a threat. And here, of course, the big critical flaw is that Genichiro won't stay dead. It's a great surprise moment when his neck opens to have another person come climbing out of it. It's the same fight we've already had, so there's nothing mechanically new here - the surprise of what happens when you deathblow him is the point. What is mechanically new is Isshin, particularly his spear phase which has been designed to contain some of the trickiest attacks and timings on offer as it's the end boss. If you look at this scenario with no preconceptions and ask "should the player have to fight Genichiro again every time?", to me the answer couldn't be anything other than NO. It's both mechanically unsound and does a fair bit to ruin the transition moment that was likely quite impactful your first time seeing it, because now you're going to be associating that cutscene with feelings of annoyance and wanting to get it over with. If they had just left it out, you would keep only associating it with your surprise/shock/possible disgust at one man climbing out of another's body, and you would be able to enjoy this brand new, by itself very enjoyable and well presented fight fully for what it is.
Joacim Tornéus
2019-09-13 22:10:06 +0000 UTCThere is a very hidden "quest" of sorts relating to the sculptor and the Demon of Hatred that you didn't mention in the snake stuff episode. I would've missed it too, but happened to notice something when I was watching a streamer on Twitch fighting the Demon of Hatred. During the "shinobi exeuction" kill animation, Sekiro said, "Sculptor..." This surprised me, since when I killed him, I remembered the demon thanking Wolf instead. I couldn't find anything online about how to trigger that dialogue, so I asked on reddit. I got a lot of responses, most of which were wrong and did not change the dialogue on my next playthrough. I burnt out on the game before I made it to the Demon of Hatred a third time so I haven't confirmed this, but I believe the trigger for the different dialogue comes from eavesdropping on Emma and the sculptor in the dilapidated temple around the time that Ashina Castle gets invaded the first time. Emma asks the sculptor about his visions of hatred, and he replies that he still has them and that it won't change. She reassures him that she will be there for him when the time comes. If you rest at the idol and then talk to the sculptor directly, he will have new dialogue telling you that you'll be the one to kill him. I believe this is what causes Sekiro to "figure out" the identity of the Demon of Hatred and unlock the different dialogue during his kill animation. If you return to the old woman in the building where you met the Tengu, after killing the Demon of Hatred, she will have different dialogue depending on whether or not Sekiro has figured out the Demon of Hatred's identity.
Perceptes
2019-09-13 20:32:44 +0000 UTCIt's interesting having some distance from the end of this game and then revisiting it through the podcast. I think overall, this is my favorite Soulsborne fighting system with my least favorite story. Yes, it is prescriptive but it is in the way that I already played the other games. So even the toughest bosses were a joy to master. That said, where we most align is the reward structure. It is the least satisfying thing in Souls and thats in a world with Chalice Dungeons. The ultimate iteration of every single weapon is almost universally worse. Thats not all, to get to that worse weapon requires an extremely rare item that I had to both look up and complete some bullshit for. I personally think this game would have been better if it removed the weapon upgrade system completely and just focused on giving more value to that skill tree. Oh well, I still love the game and I love the podcast, keep it up my dudes.
mitch benes
2019-09-13 20:15:34 +0000 UTCDear Gary and Kole, I realize my first tidbit should have gone in the last response episode, I just didn’t know about those statues yet. If you guys want to cut it to make my response briefer though it won’t hurt my feelings
Eli Leslie
2019-09-13 20:12:05 +0000 UTCSo, I think as an end Boss Isshin is probably about a B. He isn’t as good as Gerhman or Gwyn, but it becomes a fun fight once you get the strategy down. The main problem is that his first couple phases are so punishing that a single mistake costs you an attempt, making it hard to practice against the later phases. Once I’d put a good chunk of hours in, I had those first few phases down pat. It became one of my favorite boss fights in the game, as his opening line of “Come, Sekiro!” was no longer an infuriating taunt but a motivating call to action. It echoed the Genichiro fight from earlier where I had the rhythm and felt super cool. But I’m not sure the hours and hours of practice it took to get to that point were worth it in the end. He is a very good, but very flawed boss and I can see why he’s so divisive. I think it’s a vast improvement over Soul of Cinder, but From needs to re-examine their approach to this kind of fight in the future.
Joelle
2019-09-13 20:10:49 +0000 UTCSekiro has been my favorite game of the year by far. It’s the only game I’ve ever played through on new game plus, and also the only game I’ve ever gotten every achievement in. For my most recent playthrough I took extensive notes to learn more of the world’s setting and lore, and I thought I’d share three of the more interesting tidbits I picked up. Disclaimer, I’ve not seen Vaati’s newest video so if these are brought up there then he probably stole his knowledge from my notebook. Tidbit 1. At the Senpou Temple, there is a small building near the entrance guarded by a spear wielding monk witch has two statues under its roof. These statues are almost certainly depicting the Buddhist gods Agyo and Ungyo, who are placed at the entrance of temples as guardians. Images I’ve seen show that they’re depicted with thin flowing scarfs swirling around their bodies, but at Senpou these scarfs have been replaced by snakes, something that seems to have no basis in real life Japanese religion. A neat relation between the real world and the lore of Sekiro. Tidbit 2. On the first return to Ashina Castle, not only have the enemies been changed, but static item pickups have as well. Among the new pickups is an alarming amount of oil placed around outside of the castle. I think these have been placed by the Interior Ministry’s agents early on to be used for the full on assault later at night. This makes sense since the nighttime assault leans on the burn everything down strategy. Tidbit 3. Probably my favorite discovery also happens in the first return to the castle, this one down below the Old Grave shrine. The area leading down to the broken bridge is now lousy with Nightjar shinobi, whereas before they were all standing guard around the castle itself. Hanging from a ledge down towards the bottom of this area you find a lone Ministry rat in hiding, the only Ministry enemy in this area right now. If you eavesdrop on him you’ll hear him snicker to himself, “Those backwater Ashina shinobi took the bait beatifully, not even knowing it was a trap. How dumb can you be?” I believe that this cackling rat fed fake information to Ashina’s Nightjars, leading them to believe the Ministry would begin their attack from the direction of this bridge. Once the Nightjar had the bulk of their strength in this area the Ministry Shinobi and rats had little trouble settling in around the castle, eliminating the basic soldiers and what few Nightjar remained there. This makes the Ministry’s assault later all the more successful.
Eli Leslie
2019-09-13 20:09:55 +0000 UTCSword Saint Isshin bums me out because he breaks an unwritten rule of From's games: the last boss won't be the hardest thing you face. Most of their previous end bosses had either been subversions (True Allant, Gwyn) or simply derived their significance from lore instead of difficulty (Aldia, Moon Presence). Even Isshin's closest predecessor, Soul of Cinder, had the good sense to be easier than the twin princes and the Nameless King. I always felt like this gave their games a sense of grace and confidence, letting the story they'd created conclude without pushing the difficulty into the red. In comparison, ending with a difficulty spike as sharp as Isshin makes From come off a bit insecure.
Eric Nagurney
2019-09-13 19:40:24 +0000 UTCI was already disappointed the first time I saw footage of Sekiro. I remember From saying they’d go in a different direction after Dark Souls 3 and for me Sekiro is still iterating on the same formula. A pure horror game by From focusing on exploration and world building would be phenomenal. Often my favourite parts of these games is inching forward on your first play through, discovering new locations and monsters. The Tower of Latria is one of the best horror stories in games! Sekiro is definitely in the lower tier of From’s catalogue. I’m getting a little jaded by the diminishing returns of From’s output since Dark Souls and want to see them experiment with some different genres
Ben Robson
2019-09-13 19:26:25 +0000 UTCOwl and what came after him on the rooftop was what put the final nail in the coffin for me and my disliking of Sekiro. Thinking I'd ultimately get a chance to see the rest of the game before truly betraying Kuro and getting the bad ending, I sided with Owl. This forced me into admittedly a pretty cool boss and then NG+. When I ultimately got back to Owl with less prayer beads and sword power memories than I should for NG+, I hit a wall that tainted the rest of the game for me. I was more than done when I got to the true Corrupted Monk and ended up tricking her into glitching off the cliff by one of the trees. No regrets.
Matthew Woodyard
2019-09-13 19:20:37 +0000 UTCSword Saint Isshin gave me a "disease" that my partner refers to as "Video Games Eye". It's where you stare for so long your eyes start watering, and then you rub the skin under your eye til it's sore because it's been 4 hours of the same boss. Eventually I felt like the boss was just too long, and I was ultimately playing the odds. Even when I got good at beating Genichiro, there was maybe a 10% chance I'd mess up and get killed because he can kill you in two hits. Then I could beat phase 1 Isshin pretty consistently, but still a 10% chance I'd die. And it requires a lot of patience. So after 5 minutes I get a chance to try phase 2. And there is like a 70% chance I die on that. I never got perfect at parrying his long combo and the pressure would break me. If he did the double overhead leap, I would lose lock on and the second hit would kill me. Then phase 3 adds the lightning and the timing on that never felt good to me. So there was only a 50% chance I parry that correctly in my panic. So with all those chances for failure, it felt like I was just rolling a slot machine every attempt and hoping for that 10% chance where everything goes right. It was like a mini roguelike where it takes 15 minutes to get to the last phase.
William
2019-09-13 19:10:59 +0000 UTCSure, I can beat Isshin now. I can do it reliably, but even when everything is going perfectly, Isshin and I are dancing around each other, it's still such a slog by the fourth health bar. It's just too much for me to consider it enjoyable. I can beat Genichiro without getting hit now, so at this point, why is he even there at the start of the fight? It just feels hard for the sake of being hard, and that is never what this series was about for me. I still enjoy Sekiro, I love the story bits, the characters are fun, Kuro is a good kid and deserved better, but Isshin just cements my thoughts on the gameplay, and I just wish it had been less hard for the sake of it, and more a cool final boss fight against a character I have come to respect.
Trey Thompson
2019-09-13 18:49:50 +0000 UTCI was stuck on Owl for about two hours. He was a difficult boss that forced me to slow down and spend a few lives learning his patterns and reactions to different things, such that in my successful run he only hit me once. I gave up on sword saint Isshin after ~8 hours of attempts across two days. It didn't take hardly any time to get to his second form, then I bashed my head against it for all of my playtime for a weekend, and gave up. I resolved to come back in a week when I would have time, but didn't. Some five months later I downloaded cheat engine and killed him. I was done with Sekiro long before I got to SSI. Maybe I should have looked up a guide, or used a tool I didn't know about, but I didn't. Maybe in a year or two I'll feel like going through the game again. Maybe I'll think that SSI is a good capstone to Sekiro then. I don't feel that way right now.
Matthew Ice
2019-09-13 18:47:56 +0000 UTCI have conflicting feelings regarding the end boss. As any other boss, I started with gradually learning the attack paterns for each of the 4 stages. After 2 hours it looked like I finally had him by the bollocks. Unfortunetely as I dealt the final blow to trigger the last deathblow, he landed a hit on me as well, knocking me back so I missed my chance to finish him off and I was eventually killed. As I was about to rage-quit and try again some other day, I had a change of mind. I was gonna take samurai slenderman down. What followed was another 3 hours of frustration until I finally cut his ugly head from his ugly shoulders. Now, you might think that I was unhappy with having to spend an additional 3 hours on what should have just taken me 2. On the contrary. Those 3 hours following my initial defeat put me in a sort of ZONE. My concentration hightened, the controller feeling like a part of my hands, Sekiro dancing to my will. If I had beatened the boss after the first 2 hours it probably would have left me with a similar impact as most other bosses. Now I have the experience etched into my memorybank as the boss who truly was my Goliath, as I feel it should be. Great show and keep up the excellent work. Love listening to you guys all day at work.
Super_Swede
2019-09-13 18:16:43 +0000 UTCI was really enjoying Sekiro by the time I managed to get to Sword Saint Isshin. But of course, the 4 PHASE BOSS changed everything. I think I managed to beat Darkeater Midir before I was finally able to put down this anime protagonist senior citizen. His delayed air slashes managed to cut me down after I had clearly dodged or jumped them, and I almost broke down crying after the 30th time. Oh, and let's not forget the quickfire revolver that he happens to pick up somewhere. Why FROM, why?
Gearman_14
2019-09-13 17:53:07 +0000 UTCWhile I do not primarily come to FromSoftware games for a test of skill - rather, like you, my entry point is typically the world building - I found myself ultimately thrilled at the challenge. A week's worth of fighting Isshin the Sword Saint initially left me wondering if I'd ever complete the game. (Till now the only boss I haven't beaten in these games is Darkeater Midir). That skepticism morphed to unparalleled thrill as I continued to close in on victory. Upon winning, physically trembling with excitement, I could barely believe it. While I definitely don't want every future game to require this level of excellence, I find that in hindsight I treasure Sekiro in light of steep but (mostly) fair challenges which pushed me like never before. That said, I hope the next game's terrors are more due to character or world arc (read: Solaire finding his own sun) than due to pure skill tests. Thanks for a well considered season guys! - Chris in Boston
Chris Johnson
2019-09-13 17:32:30 +0000 UTCI was new to the slack when Sekiro released, I also got the flu and was sitting home on my couch gaming and chatting. Playing non-stop I got ahead of everyone and it was a great experience every time someone got to Fountainhead and again when they found the dragon. Thanks everyone. Sekiro is so weird. The game is a 40 hour tutorial after which you can play 1 game. Sekiro. I think that is a terrible design. However that made the ng+ cycles so much fun. You spider-man past levels because mooks give decreasing xp and the game turns into a bossrush. I had TONS of fun doing that, a lap of the game taking about 2 or 3 hours. trying new weapons or strategies people found, or just having great duels. I do not think a 40 hour painful learning curve is at all good or desirable, but I cant deny how much fun the game is after "it clicks". so weird
Andrew F
2019-09-13 17:32:11 +0000 UTCAt this point, I think I can truly say that I have fallen out of love with FROM. Dark Souls 3 broke my heart, and Sekiro never won it. I never beat Slave Knight Gael, and I will never beat Sword Saint Isshin. I just didn't connect with them, and felt like the games had just fundamentally changed their values to something I didn't care for. A huge part of it is that I just wasn't that surprised by either game. I was so ready for the Fountainhead Palace to be something TRULY out there, but a big rope doll just drops me off at... another fucking pagoda town. I mean, it's a nice pagoda town. But it still just felt like the same shit as the rest of the game, like they only made one collection of buildings and then just iterated on weather and time of day to build all of their levels. That's just not enough diversity (and specifically weirdness) for me. Really hoping Elden Ring is a return to form, and a return to the things that I value about these games.
Adam Bucceri
2019-09-13 17:28:57 +0000 UTCI think Sword Saint is the best fromsoft boss. It scratches every itch I want. Genichiro + Isshin phase 1 basically force you to play like Artorius--by the time I won, I knew every move perfectly. Then Isshin phase 2/3 tests how well you do with spears, which are probably the hardest thing to play against in the game. I love that the game finally forces you to learn spears, when mayeb you had run pasta lot of the Seven Ashina Spears. I feel like I could talk about this boss forever, but to me it is easily the best boss from's made so far. Additionally, the myth building for Isshin was incredibly effective for me, maybe even more so than Gwyn. So many of yours moves are *invented* by Isshin, which is amazing.
The unconditional love of 200,000 little birds
2019-09-13 17:22:24 +0000 UTCDear Hard Games: Can you at least just kill me in a cool way if you’re not gonna give ground on difficulty? Chop my head off with a chainsaw, make the dogs rip my throat out, suplex me and make my head explode. In sekiro, I got clipped by a sword, then made a sound where I took a painful shit. Look my main point is, death can be fun too, like when the Senpou Chiropractors adjust your spine, Bloodborne enemies with glowing blood echo eyes, supermeatboy instantly respawning you without load times, etc. - kill ME in glorious ways!
CoalmineCanary
2019-09-13 17:10:45 +0000 UTC
