Episode 142 - Should I involve myself in the drama?

People tend to bring their big egos into these debates and take even the mildest of criticism as personal attacks. I'll be as constructive and polite as possible, but I don't want Rossman's or Techlore's videos about GrapheneOS to be on YouTube without pushback. No one has challenged their videos and I think that needs to change.

The Hated One

I feel about this situation almost exactly the same as you do. There's certainly a part of me that would love to see you attacking Techlore and Rossman, and they'd for sure deserve it. However, as you said this is a difficult topic, and it's not clear to whether this would be a good choice or not. In the end it is of course your choice, but as you asked about what we think, here are a few thoughts: First of all, I'm not sure getting involved will be the best for GrapheneOS. Whatever led up to where things are now, at this point Daniel Micay has stepped down to allow the project as well as himself a better path forward. What we do now shouldn't be about who deserves what, but about what is best for the project and the goals behind it. GrapheneOS is much bigger than Rossmann, Techlore or even Micay, and it can still be so much more. The question for me boils down to whether you think that given some time, all of this will slowly fade on its own. If not, maybe actively intervening is the correct choice. Which of the two it is is hard to decide, so I'm not going to pretend I can give you much advice which you don't know better yourself. If you do decide to get into it, I think there might still be a way to do it in a somewhat productive manner, and I trust you are a person who would at least attempt that. I don't think it makes much sense to begin going through old chats and heating the last conflict. Trying to defend Micay or invalidating Rossman feeling personally uncomfortable with using GrapheneOS would be a bad strategic approach. Where I think is much more room for criticism is not in the personal feelings and choices of people like him, but in their public behavior. If Techlore personally decides to ditch GrapheneOS for Apple, imo that's a stupid decision, but it's certainly his decision to make. Personal control and choice IS what we are fighting for, after all. But if Techlore then goes on to present Apple as a reasonable choice over GrapheneOS when it comes to privacy and security publicly, to an audience of hundreds of thousands of mostly less informed people – that's partly false and wholly irresponsible. Even infosec influencers do not have to always make the most privacy and security oriented choices, and I also don't think they have to hide that. If anyone does feel unsafe using GrapheneOS, that is valid even though it is irrational, that's what human emotions are like after all. But if they are going to talk about it publicly, it always has to be presented as such. Making this destinction between the personal feelings and decisions of Henry Fisher and the public persona and responsibility of Techlore is imo key to not be misunderstood and convince as many people as possible. You said that you thought your social awkwardness might be misinterpreted as emotional coldness, but I think exactly this self reflecion on your part is the thing that makes you most likely to succeed. If you can make it clear that you do have compassion for someone like Rossman, who seems to me like he got scared because he didn't now any better (you might want to phrase that differently lol), that might make people keep listening to also hear your limited but not less deserved or harsh criticism. Informational security isn't a topic like cooking, where everyone has their own taste and if you say something stupid, that probably won't have many consequences. Yes, everyone can make their own choices in the end, but if someone is deceived by emotionally misguided misinformation from an influencer they trust, like many do Techlore and Rossman, this error might actually have serious real-world repercussions. And then that IS partly on the influencer and does warrant harsh critique. Them possibly being in the right about Micays behaviour towards them on a personal level doesn't excuse their public behaviour towards their audience. So what I don't think should be asked of people like Rossman and Techlore is explicitly to forgive Micay, take back their accusations, or even use GrapheneOS again, ever. What can and should be expected of them, even more so now that Micay has stepped down, is to, when relevant, present GrapheneOS simply as what it is: The arguably most private, secure and usable OS in the world, next to only Qubes, if that. In the end, it is your decision to make, and even though I hope this advice was helpful, I trust you more than I do anyone else to find the best option. I have enough hope in humanity left that I think if you put the same effort that goes in all your videos into making this point in a respectful, sincere manner, at least a few might listen. On the other hand, it might not be worth the effort or reach its intended effect, regardless of your efforts. However you decide, I think most if not all here will respect your decision and support you in your goals.

This is a valid point.

The Hated One

I'd say his response depends on the criticism. I have seen Micay lashing out against people when he thought they were doing personal or non-substantive attacks on the project and people behind the project. But when you genuinely criticize GrapheneOS features or lack thereof, Micay and other developers from the project will respond constructively. I don't think Micay is /only/ this caricature of a lunatic with anger issues. He's done a lot of posts explaining the tech behind GrapheneOS and security overall and these were incredibly informative and useful.

The Hated One

I maybe in the minority here but I can understand why Rossman had those thoughts. Micay directly threatened him and it’s not far fetched to then be concerned about the operating system on your mobile phone. I think it seems totally legit to have such a fear though it might not be grounded in reality. Furthermore, Micay has portrayed himself as a bully lunatic and I’d heard nothing but aggressive attacks from him toward anyone who is critical of his work. You can see that in his old posts on Reddit and Twitter. Thus, it is a legitimate to be concerned about a product if the lead developer is unhinged. This goes for any product you buy.

No Name

If you are going to get involved in this, the most important thing is to attack the testimony, but not the witness. In the case of Techlore and Louis Rossman, it is okay to attack their arguments as well as their behaviour around this topic. Daniel Micay, may have crossed a line, and has some controversial ways of dealing with things. But GrapheneOS is not compromised because of Daniel Micay's behaviour. Also, avoid trying to defend GrapheneOS too heavily, doing so, may not get you the desired result. Instead, you could focus on speaking about the positives of GrapheneOS, and possibly dispelling Rossman's and Techlores's arguments peacefully, by showing how the things they argue in regards to GrapheneOS, is simply not doable. If you can demonstrate this, it will be difficult for them to find a hole in your argument. If they can't attack the testimony, they will attack the witness. So if you are going to go down this route, do not be surprised if they make an emotionally charged retaliation towards you. I hope my feedback has provided you with some insight : )

Nameless

I didn't follow the whole story, I think when Techlore talked about it I didn't want to understand everything, I didn't see the problem and I knew I wouldn't take sides just on his point of view. I don't know Louis (maybe because I'm not a native English speaker). This reminds me of human relations problems. It's everywhere, 2 people can't like each other or work together and it has big impacts. You can like everyone and we are all someone's idiot. Often, in these situations, rational arguments are useless. And I'm not sure there's any truth to it, because the arguments used by the concerned people are constructed to validate their animosity. Personally, I'd stay out of it, but that's just me and my 2 cents. :-)

Lougavulin

I wasn't really aware of this drama until you raised it here, although I have spent a little time getting a better understanding of it so that I could give you a slightly more informed opinion. I can see a few facets to the story: The drama itself: It's a soap opera and it might be reasonable to assume that no party is entirely innocent. After all, everyone involved has a channel and followers, and good or bad media all generate content and views. Arguably, the GrapheneOS parties have most to lose in this arena, because they are actually making something beyond their brand and are not just commentators. I am not sure that anything much is gained by rehashing this story in detail. Even if you present new facts, your account is just going to be diluted by all the other opinion out there. Anything more than a summary would, in my opinion, just add fuel to the drama fire. The OS and the impact of the drama on the OS: It's hard to argue that the current iterations of GrapheneOS don't work or are impossible to use. However, it is fair to say that drama within the development team might impact support, maintenance and development in the future. I'd be quite interested in an article that addresses these questions, both for my own interest in GrapheneOS and in the context of the more philosphical question of sustainability and evolution of open-source projects in general.

SteveC

I feel that in-fighting in the privacy community could harm the cause, I think that you should focus on promoting GrapheneOS and explaining why the drama does not matter. Take the opportunity to clarify what makes GrapheneOS safe from compromise by a corrupt leader, especially as opposed to closed-source intellectual property from a company who hold all the keys. Just my 2c.

Harr

Few things on my preferences: Toxic behavior is unacceptable to me, regardless who its from. Our surveillance culture is a scaled manifestation of toxic power and control, so please call it out wherever it is (as you are so good at). No one is perfectly good or perfectly toxic, please guide us through the nuances of the situation and the most important takaways for us to have safety and mental health. In terms of will this help the cause or hurt... Hard to say... Was appeasement a good idea (at the time)? Should we have come down harder on Putin in 2014? Will the perceptions of your two cents in this matter help GOS, or send people rushing into the arms of the surveillance giants? I don't think anyone can really say definitively. So do please practice mindfulness, wisdom, and compassion when approaching this topic, should you choose to accept it. But also don't suffer fools. I hope that rope is tight enough for you to walk on. Good luck brother.

afro

I am 100% interested in what you have to say on it and think you have the skill to bring clarity to the situation.

afro

But i would say, despite that video he still mentions today about GOS whenever privacy on phone topic, OS topic, device ownership topic cames like "i would rather use and privacy oriented os like GOS or calyx OS......." But techlore never ever mention the name, not just that, if he cover some topic like some news and on that news GOS mentioned, be hide the name from the news then make the video. By the way i am not defending louis, just saying.

inferno_potato

But at the same time i would say don't join the drama because it will so more harm than good to GOS. Because, u tube has shadow banned ur channel, u r getting less views. Louis video got 300k+ views on that GOS video. So if u make that video or join the drama, louis will make another counter video that will get another 300k+ views which will damage GOS further. And people will trust him more than u because he has better views on videos and more sub than u. No offense.

inferno_potato

I would suggest that if u want to join the drama, target rossman, my suggestion is instead of saying he us wrong, point out where he said wrong like he said "he don't trust GOS because it is made by micay" - which is abolutely meaningless because it is 100% opensource. He was willing to trust ios and google android before which he was using before GOS, that are known for violating privacy and they are closed source. Yes it is true thay Micay had some issues, but because of his issues it is nonsensical to judge the project which opensourced, people like snowden used it daily and recommend it still (he tweeted it couple of months ago this year) and by many security conscious persons.

inferno_potato