Dune Club 2 Session 3 Qs

Hello Danika, Dune has had an unimaginable impact on me last year I greatly appreciate the fact that you are doing duneclub again. I’m already seeing different things that you picked up on that I didn’t. And that’s what’s fascinating about these books, and why I deeply respect what you do. I was reading Dune again so I came in a little late for the second book which I have already read but I’ve started reading again now and catching up, and I am also a bit surprised about how well you are interpreting the novel analysis live (minus the off-topics but they are informative and interesting in their own ways). I would like to bring up 2 things from session 1. Yes, I know this is session 3, but it is still Dune Club: What do you think of the moment where Edric is trying to persuade Irulan to join the conspiracy, and finally said: ‘He deposed your father with his infamous Fremen horde, married you to fix his claim to the throne, yet he has never crowned you Empress,’ - after which what follows is - ‘Edric tries to sway you with emotion.’ Skytale said. ‘Is that not interesting?’ - which 1. It shows that Scytale already knows that Edric himself can be swayed by emotion, as we will see shortly, and later they all recognize that Edric is their major weakness and 2. This also explains the way the Tielaxu manipulated and prevented the Guild from seeing into the future paths and seeing what the Tielaxu will actually try to do, which is screw over everyone else, as Skytale himself says that they will possess a Kwizatz Haderach in the end. 3. He says it out loud, which means that Edric is blind and it’s an insult to him that the Bene Gesserit can see, which will let them know what Skytale, or the Tielaxu, are doing, yet he does in a way that deliberately is targeted at the Revered Mother. Skytale knows that they will have registered this obvious weakness of the Guild, which is why they are treated meanly as a source of functions (protecting the conspiracy) and not as an actual threat to any of them, as Irulan says ‘You have your uses apparently.’. I think that this is what makes the Tielaxu unpredictable, and thus dangerous. And this makes sense, as earlier in the book, just after Scytale says ‘Our hostilities are best left unvoiced.’ - after which everyone sees that there’s much more to him. He then says that they will defeat the emperor with ‘Poison.’ After which, the Guild navigator, having discussed and invented the plan with the Tielaxu Ghola, jumps in and says that Scytale means - ‘psychic poison’ - after which Scytale laughs out loud, and it is funny, for it is obvious now how the Guild themselves have been poisoned, which would allow for the Tielaxu plan to go into fruition. Hayt himself, or possibly similar instruments, have been used to poison the Guild itself, potentially as the Tielaxu. or maybe the ghola itself, was explaining how they were going to use that ‘psychic poison’ against Paul, which is the same weapon the Tielaxu used for the Guild, so that they can’t see what the Tielaxu want to achieve - to possess a Kwizats Haderach, and it is that which makes it funny to Scytale, on one side at least, as he expects the Bene Gesserit and Edric to think that he is laughing because the BG do not know, or at least Irulan doesn't know, how the Guild navigator can shield them from the vision of the emperor, which is to be poisoned with a ghola sent from the Guild, the same of which probably poisoned the Guild...as Skytale said, it is a 'multi-purpose ghola'. It is also interesting how immediately after that, Edric pops a melange pill, and gets the spice awareness which allows him to see space-time, and he - ‘smelled another kind of peril now, but his crutch of prescience might not find it.’ - and Scytale knows why, or at least thinks that he does, as I also know how the book ends. And last but not least, earlier still, right after Irulan says, still in the beginning ‘If we go on this way, we’ll die of stupidity!’, and Skytale notices how she - ‘stood at a corner of Edric’s tank, a tall blond bauty, splendid in a robe of blue whale fur and matching hat. Gold buttons glittered at her ears.’ - and he was observing her, seeing how she had the BG training - ‘Scytale’s mind turned from nuances of language to nuances of location.’ - nuances of language Irulan was using as well as the Reverred Mother, and he then proceeds to observe the place around, and asks himself why they chose this place, after which he rightly concludes it was designed to point at the weakness of Edric, namely his fear of close spaces, and seeing that, he wonders what they’ve prepared for him. Well, just as he was about to see that which was aimed for the Guild, he observed the place around them, which is - ‘ All around the dome lay hills mangy with melting snow which reflected mottled wet blueness from the small blue-white sun hanging at the meridian.’ - well Irulan’s appearance, if you remember what it was - 'a tall blond beauty, splendid in a robe of blue whale fur and matching hat. Gold buttons glittered at her ears' - perfectly matches the place, and in combination with the subtleties of the language which made even the hyperaware mind of Scytale to 'from nuances of language to nuances of location.' we see how the BG themselves manipulated Scytale, without him even knowing it how in the end he saw a woman he could never have. Of course, the BG didn't do that just because of that, and there's probably more to it. What do you think about this situation? This are things I noticed just from session one, keep up the good work.

I liked what you said regarding Paul being a war messiah instead of a messiah of love. I do believe he still is an Atreides and tries to uphold his family values but realizes that it is impossible. His oracle powers do not always give him good options, instead just less horrible. I wonder if Herbert was influence by chaos theory or something or an early version of said theory. If this is true, Paul is actual a slave to his oracle powers and he cannot be both a moral person and have free will since cannot deceive himself about the morality of the decisions he takes since he knows the outcomes. He couldn’t even morally abdicate cuase he could make matters even more horrible. What do you think?

I feel that Hayt's purpose is that there is no trick, he is exactly as Duncan Idaho was and it's Paul who has changed not him. I feel that Paul has already chosen the path that will destroy him and Hayt is trying to set him on the right path but Paul won't listen to him because he doesn't trust him? What do you think?

Thanks for DuneClub2 loving it so far :)

As a fellow woman I really enjoyed this session as well! My question is about how prescience works so I don't know if you'll be able to answer it but how does the steersman shield the conspiracy from Paul? I never got how they could hide from each other or how that worked... <3

dude Paul letting 61B peeps die in his name to me just isn't consistent w Paul/ the Attreides character Especially since Paul is precient so he should be able to see what's happening and then take action to stop it.

MsSuperconductor

I don't quite understand how the Dune Tarot is being used in the story. How is it clouding the future for Aila and Paul. Who made the Dune Tarot and did they create it to mess with the Atriedes?

What kind of similarities can we see between the Fremen and rednecks? Was this already addressed in Dune Club 1? In both I see a highly specialized culture that's part of its environment pretty separate from 'higher cultures'. In both I see a large body of myths a reliance on those myths as structural parts.

Clear Menser

Also, just visited the House of Terror in Budapest on Nazi and Soviet occupation, and I was thinking about Paul's Jihad all the time and felt disgusted.. maybe also Paul organized mass deportations and slavery.. who knows.. I lost some respect in him.. maybe it happened also to Paul himself..

So... Paul mentions Hitler and underestimates the numbers the Nazi killed, though Paul fails to mention or realize that Hitler actively wanted the extermination of Jews, Roma, Slavs, any other group considered "sub-human" (homosexuals, disabled, freemasons, political opponents, prisoners of war, the list goes on). Paul, on the other hand, is behind the death of 61 billions he never wished for. But like an impotent god he is powerless to stop it. He was merely the spark that caused the fire. So, my question to you is. why does he care about these deaths and his impotence? What is the point of political machinations and plots if the extermination is well beyond measure? In essence, Dune has already gone post-apocalyptic. Why bother beyond survival in a post-apocalyptic world?

PJ B

Hey, just wondering about the religion the Quizarate is spreading in the universe following the Jihad. If it is based on the Fremen religion it will contain many elements introduced by the Missionaria Protectiva that could be used by the Bene Gesserit on a large scale... ??

Do you think Paul's vision of the moon crashing represents his fear that when he dies, the balance which he inspires/controls will be disrupted? Given that the moon's gravity is responsible for the stability of earth's tilted axis and thus long-term regularity of the seasons?

Red Sonja's mate