Questions for Dune Club Session 8

Can someone please link the Paul 16 minute video?

Frank Herbert seems to believe that current institutions (or the ones of his time) were corrupt (I agree) and seems to argue through his writing for a form of meritocracy. Yet he doesn't seem to think that merit equates to intelligence, or social consciousness, or the acquisition of wealth, or even the summit of training and skill (such as Mentats or Doctors). Rather he seems to think that the most meritorious leader is the one who is hardest to kill in combat. Certainly Paul has had a spiritual awakening, but to gain his position, he must repeatedly meet physical challenges, not intellectual or spiritual ones. Do you think Herbert values physical strength over other types of merit, and if so, why does he? [The rest of this is detail elaborating on my question, you may not want to read it all. :^) ] For instance if Jamis had killed Paul, there would be no Kwisatz Haderach. So the strongest leader is the one who wins a knife fight. And Stilgar himself is leader because he can beat any other member of his tribe. One problem with this philosophy is that the second strongest member of a tribe is generally killed if he loses the challenge, or the old leader, who may still be strong, gets killed by a challenger even though he may still be of value to the tribe. So, only members too weak to challenge the leader are left. Why would Frank Herbert imply that this is a good system?

Dune Club is what finally pushed me to becoming a Patreon member. Anyway, question regarding section 8 (I know, I'm late). On page 518: "And Paul […] felt that a vital moment had passed him, that he had missed an essential decision and was now caught up in his own myth." Do you know what this "vital moment" was that he missed, and what he could've done in that moment to prevent the current outcome?

Posting this for Session 9: It seems that now Paul is swimmin' in women, since he has this developing relationship with Chani and also Jamis's woman whom he has decided to keep on as a servant. I can't help but notice that much of his formative time as a child was spent in the company of men (Duke Leto, Gurney, Duncan, Yueh, Thufir), but in this time of his life he is starting to have more female guidance as he more closely relies on his mother and discovers Chani and her counsel in how to be a proper man of the Fremen. Do you think this is significant, particularly since he is about to have a very freaky little sister and we all know he ends up marrying Princess Irulan (herself a scholar) at the conclusion of the book.

Hi CBG19 !! Just joined Team 19 !! Dune Club has been absolutely phenomenal!! Thank you so much for doing this, it's the highlight next to flight training of each week !! I agree with your "pivoting" to doing more in depth content it has been really more inspiring and life changing for me even as a filmmaker and pilot. Continue to do what your doing and not what all of these other channels are doing. I have watched your videos on repeat which is countless hours or inspiration and intelligence. Greater Creators was an incredible venture and I watched Jodorowsky, Frazetta, Miyazaki, Moore, and Kubrick videos on multiple occasions. Keep doing what your doing it's incredibly inspiring and love your outfits for the pre Dune Club videos, they have a remarkable beauty to them and really set the mood.

I also wanted to say thanks so much for doing Dune Club! I am not really a reader, but I've been wanting to become more of one for the longest time. I've never read Dune before and this club format is so good, I've been able to so much more out of it as we go through it all together.

Max Barrow

Hi! I was wondering about the use of the word "weirding". The shadout mapes used it to describe the plant conservatory in Arrakeen palace. Now Stilgar is using it to indicate Jessica and her style of combat. Is there a link? Thank you!

Why do you think Jesica is so singularly minded? She is almost 2-D. Paul doesn't want all this blood on his hands where she is only concerned about using the Fremen to "win back Paul's place for him. "

Erinaceous

What do you make of Jessica's apparent willingness to manipulate the Fremen's beliefs for the benefit of her son compared to her feelings she previously shared with Yueh: "...motivating people, forcing them to your will, gives you a cynical attitude towards humanity. It degrades everything it touches." (p 104) Don't these contradict each other? Is Frank Herbert writing from the point of view of a cynical attitude towards humanity? Because it seems like most of the religion depicted so far, such as the Missionaria Protectiva and Kynes' fathers belief system set up for the Fremen and their bringing water to Arrakis, seem to be expressly designed to "motivating"/manipulating people. Thanks!

Max Barrow

Paul keeps having visions of the Attreides banner waved as a massive jihad is sweeping the universe in his name. He views this as a bad thing, that he must not let it happen, but why? Isn't this what he ultimately wants, to get revenge for his house and ensure that his line goes on? Or has he let go of that life and embraced his new identity as Paul Muad Dib? And if so, wouldn't any war the fremen wage in his name be under the identity of the lisan al gaib and therefore not involve Attreides banners?

Is Paul seeing his mother as his enemy a metaphor for the conflict between a parent's expectations for the future of their child and the child's desire to shape their own future?

On p 504 Paul quotes from the OC Bible (467 Kalima) that Dr. Yueh gave him, saying "From water does all life begin" and the Lady Jessica is surprised, thinking, "Where did he learn that quotation? ... He hasn't studied the mysteries". Why hasn't Paul been instructed in religious matters? Since the Bene Gesserit rely on religion it seems like something that would be part of the training, something that would be as important to them as the other disciplines that they ARE teaching Paul. Why doesn't it occur to Jessica that Paul may have read an OC Bible? Isn't this the primary religious work of their time? Yueh's wife was a Bene Gesserit and she had a favorite passage in the OC Bible, so we know that at least some BG were familiar with it. Also this indicates Paul never told his mother about Yueh's gift. He is keeping this from her. This lack of communication is apparent in his thoughts that Jessica is his enemy. Why can't he/won't he just tell her about his visions and say, in essence, "Mom, you are going to cause a Jihad, so please cut out this behavior of thinking of the Fremen as "peasants" who can be "wielded like a sword" ?

OMG i just realized that Paul's 2 Fremen names; Usul (the base) and Mua'Dib (wisdom) are the top and bottom spheres from the kabbalah tree of life!