Children of Dune Club Session 4 Qs

Do you think Paul and Leto are working together? Do they see each other's actions to the point they effectively collaborate, since their goals seem to coincide?

Going back to last session since I got behind... When Leto and Ghani consult with their parents Paul says "we live only through the reflection of your awareness" and Chani and Paul have a conversation like they haven't seen each other since Chani passed. So is there a copy of Paul and Chani in the twins memories? If so then theoretically if the Baron gets control of the twins there would be three different Barons right? Just wondering your thoughts on how the people living in other people's memories deal works, that kind of stuff trips me out.

Lots of commentary on changes in these chapters. Stilgar lamenting the changes on Arrakis, Duncan mourning for the changes in Alia (omg soooo sweet), Jessica realising her conditioning with the Bene Gesserit is really out-done by Leto and Ghanima... Change and chaos is so painful but necessary. I'm personally loving the themes. So powerful and moving and necessary - for everyone! Danika - what's the most unexpected change in the Dune series that has surprised you? Have your views on the events that surprised you changed on rereading the series? And finally do you personally ever fear change and what's your tips for facing that fear? xx

Cazzamatazz

Hey, I was wondering how to interpret the fact the the Preacher-Paul still has a vision of the future enabling him to "see" despite being blind. I remember that Paul's vision ended when he went into the desert at the end of Dune Messiah... Also, do you have comments on tradition as a tool to control masses? Never though of it like that, more as tool for people to feel safe, as Stilgar states in a passage :)

A pair of observations: On p.198 there are two things in quick succession that are really great. Just mentioning first that I really enjoy the saying that "to suspect that you are mortal is to know the beginning of terror - to know irrefutably that you are mortal is to know the end of terror" before moving on to the 2nd thing: My main thing i wanted to talk about is the sentence "they were the children of Abraham, learning more from a hawk stooping over the desert than any book yet written." When I first conceived of asking about this way back during Mystic Monday days (we thought the next Dune club was right around the corner), I was going to ask if the reference to Abraham was a specific scriptural reference, but then I realized it's far more interesting to look at how Herbert emphasizes learning through wordless experience rather than internal monologue. In one of the Watts Waves (I think the first one), Alan Watts says something like: "Some people think that the real world is material, that it's made of a kind of a stuff. Some people think that it is spiritual or mental. But this real world is not material. It is not spiritual. it is...." *clangs his gong* And somewhere else in the same discussion "I want to point out that both these ideas...are concepts...of words." This thread continues in the later books (Leto talks about the past that's worth preserving) so I thought it was great to point out that it seems to really pick up at this point (as usual being careful about whether this is necessarily the first reference to it so far).

I find myself paying close attention to the chapter introductory quotes. In the first of this session, there's "a barbarous form of incest", is there any other kind of incest? More importantly, in a discussion between Idaho and Alia, Idaho mentions Stilgar still believes because "Muad'Dib was always for the little people". I disagree. Aside from the nameless masses of Fremen there to kill nameless billions with their jihad, impotent Paul only concerned his affairs with the rich and powerful houses. Dune is all about power plays between people so lofty they sound as if they shit marble. So, why the pretense about concerns of the "little people"? The Bene Gesserit consider but a select few to be "human", the rest of the people to be animals. All this Golden Path for humanity seems nothing but a farce for more or less intrigue between a select few. Any comments?

PJ B