CoDC Session 12 Qs

I am going to miss this. Until next time!

Thanks for another great book club. Can’t believe we’ve done 5 now! The inspiration and mental exercise is always appreciated. You are truly “the Lightbringer”, D. I love how many excerpts from this reading reminded me of the yin yang balance. “nothing in a polarized universe can exist without its opposite being present.” “He speaks of death because that’s necessary, Stil. It’s a tension by which the living know they’re alive.” I think the fremen duality in this book screams of their need for balance. Would you rather be the only lace shirt fremen on a planet of hard AF faydekin or a lone death commando in a world full of water bloated softies? Thanks again!!!

Wooooo! We made it! So much has happened in life since we started Dune back in... what... was it 2017?? Crazy! I love how different each books feels and how crazy the story gets and can't wait for God Emperor! So as a fun last episode wrap up a few fun questions: Can you think of another story where a PLACE and it's environment plays such a crucial role to the story as Arrakis does to Dune? It's really beautiful how the land and it's ecology has shaped this unique story so much. Another question/ observation - do you think Paul and Alia had lived too long in their own unique human lives to be able to face the craziness of becoming a non-human god? Leto only lived 9 or so years in this new life and it feels like that youth would help in making a jump into something so alien whereas Alia and Paul had gone through so much as humans, fell in love, made friends and belonged to very human cultures (Atreides/ Fremen/ Bene Gesseit etc). Leto was so young he hadn't quite delved into his own human life that it makes sense that he was able to take the leap and join with Shai Halud instead. I feel as we age we walk deeper down certain paths and it's harder to walk back and go on a different path as we age... not impossible but definitely harder. Would you agree his youth played a factor? And finally the most important of mature fedaykin questions: - Marry/Fuck/Kill: Leto II/ Stilgar/ Farad'n - Marry/ Fuck/Kill: Ghanima/ Alia/ Jessica :P

Cazzamatazz

What's the top lesson we can learn from Children of Dune in your opinion? My favorite from Book 2 is that when your brain tries to tell you to do some dumb shit, you don't have to listen.

quotes for DuneWave : "The dog remembers the wolf. Each universe revolves around a core of being, and outward from that core go all of the memories, right out to the surface." & "I wear the skin of Shai-Hulud." & "We kept the presence of death a dominant specter among the living here. By that prescence, the dead changed the living. The people of such a society sink down into their bellies. But when the time comes for the opposite, when they arise, they are great and powerful."

Clear Menser

I would like to string three important quotes together. First in Chapter 59 Paul says " To be a god can ultimately become boring and degrading. There'd be reason enough for the invention of free will!" A God could perceive the chaotic nature of reality. Us humans break everything down into unreal categories as exemplified by Leto in Chapter 64 "There's always a prevailing mystique in any civilization. It builds itself as a barrier against change and that always leads future generations unprepared for the universes treachery. [...] You see the mystique id like demon possession, it takes over the consciousness, becoming all things to the observer." The paradoxical gaps between those mystical categories are what humans perceive as free will. The more finite and detailed those categories become the less room exists for experiential free will. The opening quote of Chapter 63 is future Farad'n saying "The assumption that a whole system can be made to work better through an assault on it's own conscious elements betrays a dangerous ignorance. This has often been the ignorant approach of those who call themselves scientists and technologists." I would like to recommend everyone in the chat read NEW DARK AGE: TECHNOLOGY AND THE END OF THE FUTURE by JAMES BRIDLE. It discusses the ways in which the problem of relying on unconscious systems like AI is already having negative consequences today.

WE MADE IT!! How come Ghanima felt such sympathy for Farad'n all of a sudden? It's like she changed her mind about wanting to kill him to want to marry him really fast. Is he super hot or what? Also: Is Leto turning mad from all the power he now possesses, or he is just very decisive and relentless?

I have noticed a lot of parallels between how this story treats generational trauma/talent and grant morrison's view of generations being different iterations of the same creature, among others. Do you think there is something cosmic these artists are taping into that they are coming to different idiations of similar ideas from such drastically different places? If not how do you think the idea proliferates?

I find it interesting that both Paul and Alia end up dying on the same day, and for similar yet inverted reasons. Paul has access to a countless number of possible futures, but resists the Golden Path because he is unwilling to make the self-sacrifice. Inversely, Alia has access to a countless number of past lives, but becomes overwhelmed and resists all of them, which leads her to embrace one particular past persona (the Baron) leading her onto a path actively opposed to life (i.e., the exact opposite of the Golden Path). In other words, Paul sees infinite external possible realities and resists the one path that is best for humanity while Alia feels the ancient depth of her internal being and instead of integrating/collaborating with the multiplicity of that which is herself (like the twins), she chooses the one persona that consists of the most destructive aspects of humanity. Would you say that you also observed similar inverted relations between characters, especially between male and female counterparts? I also observed this in Dune Messiah where Herbert creates these Paul / Alia contrasts. More specifically, the scene in Messiah where Paul is dressed like a desert Fremen observing Alia give a mass really reminded me of the scene in CoD where Alia is dressed as a Fremen to observe Paul as the Preacher give a speech. Even the differences in how Paul and Alia die suggest an inversion, with Paul ultimately getting killed by someone else (external cause) while Alia ends up killing herself (internal cause).

First let me observe that Leto got some anime levels of power with his blurred bare-handed decapitation. I literally imagined the standard shocked face stop, sectioned body part slowly slides off with blood spurts.. One chapter starts on Leto not following his father's footsteps. I will say this: I agree. I've always thought of people who follow their parents' footsteps (taking the same profession usually) as not their own person. What are your thoughts on following your own path regardless of expectations? Can you make a parallel with Leto's Golden Path which actually does not bode well for anyone (that is, this is Leto's path, and given he himself is abomination, it's not clear that it is his own)? Thanks for the book club. Of course, I have more questions, but you probably wouldn't like them. I appreciate all your efforts and enjoy our discussions, even if I feel the book is not near what I would normally enjoy. I recognize the world building especially has been a huge influence on both fantasy and scifi genres (and elsewhere). It has inspired countless stories in so many ways, so it is always fun to look at the source material and get a better perspective. Looking forward to the next bookclub, and I will have to experience the weirdness of God Emperor.

PJ B

Last Class... Two questions: first, what was Jessica's personal goal with Farad'n? Jessica mentions that Leto and Ghanimal outmanouvered her, but I don't see where specifically. What did Jessica think was going to happen once the BG Trained Farad'n arrived on Arrakis? Second, what part of the novel do you find really stands out to you, or is your favorite scene? I know it may not be easy to choose. For me (probably for a lot of people) it is the final confrontation between Alia and the twins. What makes the scene such a winner for me is first, Leto and Ghanima tell Alia they have figured out a way to resist Abomination and ask Alia to let them help her. For the first time in the entire blasted novel someone told Alia they would try to help her. Not judge her, not offer oblique advise, but help her. I know it was too late, but I'm glad it happened. Second Alia's death scene is one of the most moving moments I've read in any book. It may sound strange, but I remember when Alia was born, I remember her being raised on Arrakis while being looked at as a freak and being comforted by her mother and Harrah as best they knew how, I remember her helping her brother take arrakis from the Harkonnens, and then I watched the girl get screwed six ways from Sunday accross this whole novel. Seeing her gather herself up and say screw you to the baron and everone else so she could go out on her terms ( even if the only terms left to her was to go out a window instead of being subjected to the trial of possession) literally made me tear up. I personally have nothing in common with Alia, but somehow I sypathized with her more strongly than any other character in any book I can think of off hand. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. Sorry to go on and on, but this is the last chance. Thank you for this and all the Dune book clubs. Already looking forward to God Emperor (and Exorcist).

What do you think Ghanima's life is like after the events of C.O.D? I've said it before, but of all the atreides family she gets the least raw deal out of any of them.