GEDC questions and observations

I think it may have been the f-word in my original comment that deserved a deletion.

PJ B

I did the same thing PJ B a session or two back and started to just keep the draft in raw text to re dump it

Observation/Question: Leto's Golden Path ultimately leads to "A humanity that cannot be tracked" ...I feel that this has become even more relevant with humanity's current use of the internet for tracking and the general disappearance of the notion of privacy. Do you think that such a parallel is a stretch?

TRIPLE BONUS TROLL QUESTION (might get deleted due to word): Can a woman have an orgasm looking at some dude climbing a wall?

PJ B

Thanks again for another great book club! So love these! I wasn't sure about this book at first but by the end I really loved Leto, Moneo and even twisted/ annoying Idaho and Siona. I love how different each book has felt - even though each one feels to have been a tragic Atreides tale - they're still somehow all unique! My question is simple - who do you think is the most tragic Atreides and why!: Duke Leto I Paul Atreides Alia Atreides God Emperor Leto II?

Cazzamatazz

QUESTION: Knowing that the Tleilaxu seem to have a Duncan factory line they can start up as soon as they get an order from Leto, is anyone else in the Imperium ordering memory-restored Gholas as well, or has Leto forbidden any but his own? If the latter: with Leto now dead, are the Tleilaxu now effectively free to open their doors up to the highest bidders, and go nuts with Gholas as much as they want? Or would they pick and choose who to bring back (depending on whose cells they've got stored) based on their own motives? It seems like as soon as they realised they could bring back the memories in Duncan, that was all they focused on, I guess because there wasn't much time between that and Leto taking control. Who else might they now bring back to life with all their memories?! PS. loved every Dune Club so far, thank you for everything! And can't wait for Heretics!

Do you believe that a pearl of Leto's consciousness is actually in each sand trout, or is it more like his genetic memory is in each of the larval worms that came off his body? Or did he mean the latter when he said the former? I thought his explanation of how he'll live on in the sand trout was just him being pretty with his words.

Adavarius

OBSERVATIONS p.546 "you have square thoughts that resist circles." Human hierarchy can be bad at its worst, but with talk of the visual reality Metaverse lately, being suborned into some kind of AI hive-mind isn't a terribly enticing alternative either. We are at a crossroads on how much of tribalism to keep, or not. p.558 "bourgeois infatuation with peaceful conservation of the past" It's funny to contrast this statement in 1981 with the current fears that unfriendly entities in 2021 will do some kind of massive digital retconning where we throw -out- the past, if we trust all our vital data to cloud computing, that if we throw out all our physical media they will censor things behind our backs in order to effect some sinister social or political change under the table. Maybe that's torquing this into a change of subject, but then again maybe not. At the time of his writing it was far less obvious that we could have too much of a good thing in this regard. We see some hard evidence when we hear of a movie or a video game being altered or censored 'for licensing purposes'. Even in printed matter when a Marvel compilation has "material from" issue number X. We are on a continuum somewhere between minor griping that implementations of Addams Family Pinball don't have Fester's likeness because of Christopher Lloyd, to farther along with the big computer array "Zero" in Geneva in the 1975 film 'Rollerball' with James Caan, just deciding one day to delete the whole of the thirteenh century. No problem, just Dante, and a few corrupt popes. p.560 "if I choose the good, does that make me good?" The problem of conflating of the actual end-choice with thinking that the personal attributes of the one making the choice, are the same. Politicians frequently make choices to make themselves look a certain way when their actual true nature is more of an enigma. p.565 "If you must label the absolute, use its proper name: Temporary." Loving the optimism of sci-fi from this era, late 70's early 80's, the attitude concerning whether we would soon figure out warp drive, et cetera. Borne of the sheer amount of change in the 19th and 20th centuries. I really do hope our scientific assumptions -do- all get smashed and that we aren't stuck in one solar system like a ship in a bottle. There's the down side of invention from Malky's Ixians, but also the up-side. p.581 "Anything's possible in a magic universe." Same as my response on p.565. Different shading, maybe.

Observation: Thank you for another Dune Club. That went fast. I hope we don't have to wait too long for Heretics of Dune Club. I am ready to buy the Heretics of Dune box as soon as you are ready to sell it. . Observation: I would describe the Dune series as brutally unsentimental for the most part. But Hwi's talk about love with Leto at the end was very touching. . . Observation: Nayla reminds me of Alia in this book, in that I think both women were treated very badly, but Nayla really got screwed. Hwi and Nayla were not that different. Their training was different, but both were trained to love Leto. Hwi was created by dickering with Maneos genetic code, and Nayla was basically created by the long term breeding of the fish speakers, but both were designed to a specific end. And both of them manifested those ends perfectly (even if the end results for Hwi didn't turn our exactly as the Ixians wished). Both were totally loyal to Leto. But somehow I see Nayla portrayed as an ugly thug being used a tool, and Hwi as the most wonderful thing ever. I liked Hwi, but I think Nayla deserves more respect than she gets, especially from freaking Duncan. (I am glad she at least got a good orgasm out of the guy). . Question: The epilogue is an excerpt from a BG arguing against the decision to censor the Lost Journals. 1) Leto mentions earlier in the book that when people find his journals, it will change how they view him and the past. But he can't foresee the actions of the descendants of Siona (of which the author of this excerpt is one) due to his breeding of the no-gene. Now they are going to censor his own words which will limit the effect the journal can have. Did Leto screw up his own long term plan here? 2) The author of the excerpt seems to be saying that they want to use (Ixian) tech. to try to communicate with the mental remains of Leto in the worms. Leto told Hwi that this would not work. But he can't see everything happening at this point, so maybe he was wrong?

QUESTION: It’s still a little unclear to me if Hwi actually loves Leto in a romantic way. Yes, they have a special connection and chemistry, and she reveres him and understands him in a way that no one else can, so I can see she has love for him in that way.
But does she actually return his romantic feelings or does she just empathize with him and care for him enough to just want to do right by him/humanity, accept her role in the grander scheme of things and do her duty? Thank you so much for another incredible journey through Arrakis! I'm so sad I've had to miss every single live session this year, but I rearranged all my plans so at the very least I'd be able to make the last one! I really can’t thank you enough for all the hard work you put into this book club every year. These book clubs have been so valuable to me, elevating Dune from just something I enjoyed to something I revere and I don't know if that would've happened without your divine intervention! I recommend it to anyone who even mentions Dune to me because reading Dune aIongside Dune Club really opened my eyes to all Dune has to offer and I just want the world to share in that experience! :) I’ve said it before and I'll say it again, Dune Club is one of my favorite things that's ever existed on the internet!!

Daryn Wood

Seems my questions got deleted... here we go again: Thanks for the book club, always a pleasure. I think I enjoyed the book more than Children of Dune because I was prepared for the zaniness. In any case, 3 observations, 2 questions and 2 troll questions: OBSERVATION 1: Duncan still a misogynist asshole driven by emotions... of course Leto likes him the most. QUESTION 1: In the end, Hwi was fridged, without a personality of her own, drowning while being grateful she dies with but before her would've-been worm-husband. Is that really all the Ixians wanted to do with her? Make her a simple pawn in the destruction of Leto? Was the death of Leto the only plan they have? OBSERVATION 2: Dune used to be about plans within plans within plans, but even if that is the case here, it does not feel like Herbert conveyed it all that well. OBSERVATION 3: And the Golden path is... some people invisible to the prescient? Bred for that? Again, how would that be better than accepting impermanence? It is especially weird given we have a chapter beginning that talks about recognizing the absolute as temporary. Feels like Herbert didn't pay enough attention in his orientalism. QUESTION 2: Finally, there's the observation that "most want to go back to a past that never existed", while that is somewhat of an accurate observation of conservatives, it is not true of many. A lot of people yearn for a Star Trek future that is unlike any past we have seen. What are your thoughts on Gene Roddenberry's future in contrast to Herbert's? (can't remember if you did that comparison on Greater Creators) BONUS TROLL QUESTION: are Duncan and Leto Herbert's self insert of his ideal physical self and philosophical self, except they're just both frustrated horny teenagers, just that one of them gets some action? DOUBLE BONUS TROLLS QUESITON I should've asked in Dune Messiah: shouldn't Leto be Leto III? The original Leto II was killed in Dune as an infant.

PJ B

I can't believe it's the last session already 😭 My question would be what are you gonna read next? I'm going to try Foundation since I'm watching the new show. Hope we will get Chapter House Dune Club next year!

eneve