EXCLUSIVE EPISODE: DUNE and the Psychology of Religious Fanaticism
Added 2024-11-12 15:00:43 +0000 UTCHow do you practice your beliefs in a healthy way?
In this Patreon-exclusive episode, licensed therapist Jonathan Decker and filmmaker Alan Seawright are talking about religion and politics, hoo boy! They’re taking a look at the psychology of religious fanaticism in Dune: Part Two. They question where the line is drawn between faith and fanaticism. They dive into confirmation bias, cult leaders, and more, and they discuss how the faith in Dune fits into all of this.
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Written by: Megan Seawright, Jonathan Decker, and Alan Seawright
Produced by: Jonathan Decker, Megan Seawright, Alan Seawright, and Corinne Demyanovich
Edited by: Emily Colton
Director of Photography: Bradley Olsen
English Transcription by: Anna Preis
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Comments
I like to hope I am fairly aware of my own biases and am open to learning and improvement where it needs to be done. I don't believe in a god, but I don't consider myself atheist, but instead view myself as more scientifically-minded. Science is happy to admit fault once new data is revealed to provide a clearer picture. As such, I call myself agnostic. I don't believe in a god, but I don't believe in the sure-absence of one, either. In regard to Dune tho, my god Frank Herbert needs an editor. I enjoyed the first book, but it is so unnecessarily wordy that it was a slog to get through; such a slog that I haven't wanted to read any further unless I can find an abridged version. Dude spent 4 pages describing a character's physical appearance who's in ONE SCENE. That is an obscene amount of unnecessary detail. Great universe tho, so glad these movies are being made so I can enjoy the universe without the slog of his writing.
Alorachan
2024-12-10 22:29:44 +0000 UTCFanaticism, I think, is fueled by confirmation bias on steroids raised to the power of tribalism that instills a sense of unquestionable righteousness. It sheds all sense of doubt and uncertainty. Rationality is replaced with unquestioning faith. It crafts a story to justify any action and judges dissent as conflict. Immorality exists only in the other, "Them." "They" are the only ones that can commit atrocities. The fanatics' actions taken against, or righteous retribution inflicted upon the unredeemable always serves the greater good. The good intentions of fanaticism sanitizes the truth that all but the true believers cannot handle. Fanaticism is passion turned evil shielding a fortress of fallacies whitewashed with a thin patina of legitimacy. Fanaticism often becomes the very things it claims to hate.
Asymetra
2024-11-28 14:01:36 +0000 UTCTrue, that's definitely part of motivation why it was created, but it survives long after soviet regime fell and it was never part of argumentation used for repression of religion and church. The argumentation communists used still remains popular (mostly based on viewing religious people as simpletons and using 500 years old history spiced with twisting facts or straight up lies) sadly this kind of bit extremist atheism rhetoric is used even in countries without comminst history.
BlackAdder
2024-11-28 12:17:30 +0000 UTCDune reveals that Spice is the secret ingredient in Willy Wonka's chocolate. ;)
Asymetra
2024-11-28 11:26:34 +0000 UTCi would say that Soviet communism was less about atheism than about the cults of personalities that imposed themselves upon Russia. Atheism was weaponized since religion was viewed as a danger to the dictators because of the loyalties demanded by religions. For Soviet communism, dictators, and, too often, churches and cults, "There can be only one." They don't like competition. As a fellow STP fan, I love your inclusion of his work. He was very insightful.
Asymetra
2024-11-28 11:08:18 +0000 UTCI would like to 3rd the motion that this be available to share with people. A lot of this message is important to the world today, and as a patron, I would not feel cheated if this was shared freely.
Michael Charboneau
2024-11-26 22:04:04 +0000 UTCOne thing you didn't get into is CrEDs. Credibility Enhancing Displays. They're a key part of many religions but other groups do it, too. Self sacrificial actions that serve no practical purpose, and can be harmful, but are done to prove membership in the group. Not drinking all that stored water is an excellent example, but so are Jewish or Muslim dietary restrictions. It's basically a more formal form of virtue signaling. That can also take the form of hating on someone you're supposed to hate. Eg, among conservative young men, loving Jordan Peterson is a social expectation. Among liberals, hating Jordan Peterson is a social obligation. Not having an opinion is not allowed. (I've been on the receiving end of liberal virtue signaling hate. It's not fun. Especially as a liberal.) Paul's fight at the end is also a CrED. He's seen that he will survive the fight, but by seeming to put his life on the line he further proves himself to the Fremin.
Larry Garfield
2024-11-23 23:39:04 +0000 UTCAttack on titan also has a lot of the element discussed. Great episode
Hjg1313
2024-11-23 22:19:55 +0000 UTCI’ll be honest, when I first found out you two were part of the LDS, it made me skeptical because of my own research into the church’s history. But hearing you talk about religion, faith, and fanaticism here, I’m convinced you’re levelheaded and though I may take issue with some parts of your faith, I know when you speak about religion you’re coming at it from a good place.
Evan Linden
2024-11-21 23:31:53 +0000 UTCI still consider her a fanatic; she legitimately doesn't believe in blood transfusions because of a verse in the bible, for example. Absolutely insane and I tell her that if she ever needed one, I'd tell the doctors that she has dementia lol. Totally bonkers what blind faith can do to people. But yes, at least we can talk openly with each other and she isn't offended by my opinions.
Heather Bukowski
2024-11-17 06:36:09 +0000 UTCI’m a fan of the Dune books and movies, I’ve only read the first book, but have the core series and have plans to finish them. 📚 I read the book after Dune Part 1 was re-released in theaters and read it in one weekend before Part 2 came out a week later. 🎥 Really loved how Denis Villeneuve expanded on Chani’s role from the books. My son and I love the movies, and he also sees through the fanaticism of both religion and fandom. I’m so proud of him for that. We’re both agnostic due to the way we were raised (my son divided time btwn two homes since his dad and I are divorced) This episode is a great reminder of staying true to our values while not getting caught up in confirmation bias. As others have said, this is a very timely episode… I also wish that this had come out earlier, and edited so that it could be shared publicly. But I do understand why this could be controversial, and from a business standpoint not wanting the whole channel to get doxed. Just glad to be here and appreciate you guys doing this for the Patreons 😊
Lisa C
2024-11-16 15:34:37 +0000 UTCThe timing of this is very relevant right now, due to politics. Couched in a lovely way. I really love the superman part at the end especially.
Nova Villmark
2024-11-16 02:00:27 +0000 UTCI’ll be honest, when you referred to Javier Bardem’s character as “your cookey uncle that you just wanna spend time with”, I had a very visceral reaction, because the only things I’ve ever seen him in are No Country for Old Men and Monsters: The Lyle and Erik Menéndez Story. I fully understand that these are all just character’s he’s played, but - having not seen any interviews he’s participated in and formed a concept of who he is as a person - I can’t not think of those characters whenever I think of him.
Catherine Ginn
2024-11-15 22:12:31 +0000 UTCSoviet communism is pretty good example of fanatical atheism. In my country you can still hear even quite liberal educated people bash on christians with phrases that were taught in schools 35 years ago when they still had power. Stilgar quite reminds me Monty Python Holy grail "I am not the messiah!" "He is the messiah!" :-D I'd say predicting future isn't just about seeing past but also about some people (bene geserit too, but even more mentats) had to become human computers because computers can't be used and they can basically calculate what happens. I'd say that's part of paul's tragedy that he is above all of these and he knows every future and what will happen if he chooses certain way. He basically lost his free will because he doesn't really have luxury to do the right thing and hope for best result, he can't hope because he knows what will happen. He can't act based on his moral values because he sees result of that which is terrible. He has to become dictator responsible for countless lives to save even more. He has to sacrifice himself chani and others but he basically knows it's the best way. I don't think he can be really categorised as good or evil. He wants good but he sees that path to good future leads through some evil deeds. It leads to that interesting philosophical idea whether it is better to keep you conscience clean with people suffering as result or whether it's actually more moral thing to sacrifice your integrity for other people's lives. It sad how some fandoms became really toxic, star wars, witcher, rings of power and dozen of other stuff. We seem to loose the ability to agree on having different preferences and liking different things for different reasons. I love how jessica is saying "slow down" and he's like "come at me bros you are no match for me!" :-D I really like how Terry Pratchett depicts faith in discworld books. Gods in his world only exist if people believe in them but that belief makes them real. Irl doesn't matter that much whether something is real because with enough people believing and acting like it is real it becomes real and infuences world. In discworld there is beautiful line about that when character talks with her grandfather Death about saving Hogfather (discworld santa claus): "All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. "So we can believe the big ones?" YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. "They're not the same at all!" YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—" MY POINT EXACTLY.” (...) "YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN’T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?"
BlackAdder
2024-11-15 06:47:31 +0000 UTCI agree with Jono. If your beliefs lead you away from compassion, kindness, understanding, and grace, then it's fanaticism, not faith. Faith should bring you closer to love and gentleness.
Amber Mason
2024-11-14 23:57:54 +0000 UTCGuys!! Wonderful job! I have thoughts but I need to wake up early to exercise! I’ll leave my thoughts tomorrow!!
Emily
2024-11-14 03:05:13 +0000 UTCLOVE this episode! Too many great things I can't fit them all in ... editing was fabulous, "I like Dune" , "college football is a safe topic to explore fanaticism" - until you marry a Husker, Jono :) The scene with Paul in the temple proclaiming to be the Lisan al Gaib always makes me cry ... always. So much potential for good dying before our eyes. P.S. As for the mob mentality usually being associated with aggressive behavior, especially so when you've been in the middle of a mob that turned aggressive. It tends to color your perspective. I once heard my husband yell over the radio for "Everyone". They don't say that. As officers run out of the LEC, I can hear the mob, and not thru my headset. The sound is coming thru the LEC doors from 7 blocks away.
Melissa
2024-11-13 20:16:44 +0000 UTCMaybe it will get uploaded to YouTube in the future. 🥰
Teo Ellis
2024-11-13 18:25:24 +0000 UTCAs a recovering fanatic myself lol, I was a very stubborn Christian when I was younger, to the point where it was leading me to a dark path and thankfully, was short-lived and I snapped out of it. Now, I maintain a belief in God, but I rarely mention it unless specifically asked. As for Paul Atreides, he definitely does some manipulating but it never really is overly selfish or greedy. He always tries to make sure that others benefit from it in some way, at least. It's heartbreaking what his fate becomes later on in the books. It's also sad to see Stilgar become a loveable friend to a mere blind follower, too but at least Stilgar has a happier ending than Paul does, at least in the books.
Teo Ellis
2024-11-13 18:01:12 +0000 UTCThat's awesome to hear. It's always heartbreaking to me when family cannot even communicate because their fanaticism gets so toxic, that it leads them to be hateful towards their family.
Teo Ellis
2024-11-13 17:44:39 +0000 UTCI understand why you didn't put this on your public platform but I wish you had. It's something I'd love to send to my dad. I don't believe that it would change anything with his beliefs. I have my hope though.
Daylynn Gardner
2024-11-13 17:32:51 +0000 UTCIt should be noted that Dune is an allegory for the middle east and American Imperialism. Guess who the Harkonnens are.
roger
2024-11-13 15:44:09 +0000 UTCI hate Bill Maher so much. Loved when Bill Burr ripped into him for supporting genocide
roger
2024-11-13 15:41:47 +0000 UTCLots of cool ideological explorations in this movie… i really like the swords
Joe Schmoe
2024-11-13 14:42:18 +0000 UTCThe Dune movies really did a good job of commentating on religious fanaticism without actually dissing religion itself.
Thursday
2024-11-13 10:48:42 +0000 UTCHonestly, I'd love to be able to share this with my mom. Who is... a Jehovah's Witness lol. Oh, boy. She's what I would definitely call a religious fanatic, BUT, a cool thing about her is, since she's kind of a black sheep in my family, she's open to discussing religion and my lack of religion, etc. So in a weird way, we have kinship for that (most of my family is baptist christian.)
Heather Bukowski
2024-11-13 04:00:52 +0000 UTCAtheist here-- really love and respect your analysis of faith and how it can help you and how it can hurt you. Oh, and of course I love Dune!
Heather Bukowski
2024-11-13 03:56:15 +0000 UTCGreat episode thank you!
Daniel
2024-11-13 02:48:40 +0000 UTCThank you for such a fantastic episode! As a Christian of 30+ years, I completely agree with your takes on religious fervor and fanaticism. I grew up going to Sunday School, attended youth group activities, and all that jazz, and though I was vaguely aware of the more...aggressive Christians out there as a kid, it took an in-person experience with an overly aggressive pastor for me to really think about this very topic in my adult life. Growing up, I was taught to always believe. Memorize the Bible verses. Never let hardship shake my faith. I think a lot of people stop there, if they even get to that point. Hell, I'm not perfect by a long shot by those standards. But I think one thing that really makes a cause worth believing in is its ability to stand up to scrutiny in a healthy way. In my opinion, a healthy faith welcomes questions. It seeks to create a greater understanding, rather than condemn those who disagree or carry different views. Rather than tell people how exactly they should feel, lead by example. And as strong believers in any cause, the most dangerous thing you can do is accept everything you hear at face value, even if it's from someone you trust, because that someone is just as human and imperfect as everyone else. Don't stop asking why! Anyway, I'm rambling a lot haha. Thank you so much for covering this topic and this amazing movie! I learned so much from both of you during these 53 minutes, and from both cinematic and psychological standpoints, this was such a refreshing watch.
Caeli
2024-11-12 23:27:36 +0000 UTCChani: He’s not Mahdi! Stilgar: Yes he is! I should know I followed a few! Paul: I’m not the Mahdi! Stilgar: He’s too humble to know he’s Mahdi, that’s how I know he is Mahdi! Paul: WHAT?! Well what sort of chance does that give me?!
Sean Goettsche
2024-11-12 23:20:08 +0000 UTCThe parallels between our current geopolitical situation and this movie are too many to be all named, but as someone else said here, the timing is just right. Thank you for being (once again) so open-minded and reasonable in your approach to these difficult topics. It's soooo refreshing and it gives me hope. :)
Marie-Soleil Cha
2024-11-12 20:59:22 +0000 UTCI just wish you folks uploaded these to a private youtube channel. That way I could start watching in the app on my phone, then just go to my tv and history. Luxury problem, but casting is wikkid fiddly.
E Grace Noonan
2024-11-12 20:47:18 +0000 UTCSorry Alan, learning Chakobsa is FAR more nerdy than learning Klingon.
MrWishart
2024-11-12 20:13:44 +0000 UTCMy answer to two of those questions: sandworms evolved from a humid green planet that turned into a hot, arid planet. That is what part of the Dune profecy foretells: the return to the green paradise. The answer about the spice guild question: they operate as the Dutch East India (trading) Company of the Duniverse.
Alejandro Vallejo
2024-11-12 19:48:06 +0000 UTCI love how well you guys are able to approach potentially controversial, sensitive topics and present them in a “Hey, let’s learn. We can talk about these things and not tear each other down” kind of way.
Big Red Cube
2024-11-12 19:31:58 +0000 UTCIn some ways the name thing is smart. How many legendary warriors are remembered, and why? How is a person’s reputation spread? Half of it is the story, the image. The leader of this fierce group of soldiers is named Desert Mouse? There is a reason they follow him and it’s not because of his physical power, there’s something else and it gives that mystery to his character that confuses enemies.
Stefan and Erin S
2024-11-12 19:05:21 +0000 UTCHeehee, Patreon's auto-captions decided that Paul's shouting in German on Arrakis 🤭
Smidge
2024-11-12 19:00:05 +0000 UTCI have a love-hate relationship with Dune. I like the story it's telling, but the world building is so dumb, I can't get over it. The stilsuits would kill you faster in the desert than if you were naked, due to thermodynamics. The sandworm makes no sense from an evolutionary point of view: if it evolved on a hot arid planet, why would its larval form have the ability suck all the water from the crust? If it evolved in a humid planet, why would it prefer arid conditions? Where is the energy input to the food chain of the sandworm if it feeds on its own offsprings? Why would the spacing guild not take direct control of Arrakis and the spice production? On the other hand LISAN AN GHAIB!!!
András Balogh
2024-11-12 17:57:07 +0000 UTCI cannot TELL you the number of times I have brought up Confirmation Bias against someone being an intolerant religious blowhard. 😵💫
Smidge
2024-11-12 17:30:48 +0000 UTCI am so sad that this is patreon only cause I wanna send this video to *so* many people.
Smeeson
2024-11-12 17:02:07 +0000 UTC*Drags out soap box.* I'm a die hard fan of the Dune books. I read 16 of the books, all the way up to "The Winds of Dune," in just the space of a few months while I was in high school. As a die hard fan of the books, I can confidently agree with Alan when he says that the movies have changed some aspects of the books in a brilliant way. Chani being much more active in doubting him was a BRILLIANT choice. There were other changes, too, but it all makes sense since Denis Villeneuve is intending to only do the first two books. Honestly, if anyone were to attempt to do ALL of the Dune books true to the original lore, I would want an animated series. There's just too much lore and literal time jumps, that it would take forever to do a live action version. Otherwise, read the books! It's so worth it. In regards to religion, I had zero faith when I read these books. As such, I happily read these books and bashed on religion. I've been wanting to go back and re-read these books now that I found faith, but very similar to the way that Jono does. Which, I have to say as an aside, is something that fascinates me seeing as Jono was raised with faith and I was raised without it. The quote: "I'm not so much focused on prophecy so much as principle," hits the nail on the head of what my belief system is. I cannot wait to go back and read these books from a more balanced perspective. Finally, I often say that I am fanatically against fanaticism. As someone who was raised in a household where literally everything was a fight, both verbal and physical, and someone always had to be right or wrong, I have found that the world is far greyer than people think. I fully believe that if more people weren't obsessed with needing to be right about things all the time, that if we could put aside our pride and admit that we're wrong or don't know the whole truth, then there would be more peace in the world. Will that happen on a grand scale? No. Can I at least do my best to demonstrate that thinking and hope to influence others to do the same? Absolutely. Thank you guys for making this video. Fantastic job!
SaucyJTD
2024-11-12 16:12:40 +0000 UTCGreat episode. The warning against following blindly and ignoring the motives of leaders is very, um,. Needed right now in a world with "strong men" rising.
Emily Powers
2024-11-12 16:07:54 +0000 UTCIt’s been awhile since I’ve commented and watched y’all. Love this episode and I got a lot of catching up to do!
Paradigm Dad
2024-11-12 15:59:52 +0000 UTCVery 😬
Moon7Willow
2024-11-12 15:16:04 +0000 UTCHow...timely 😐
Lenna
2024-11-12 15:06:38 +0000 UTC
