Discipline: King Crimson - Behind the Score (Episode 18)
Added 2022-05-01 03:29:09 +0000 UTCJoin me for a trip down the Fripp rabbit hole as we dive into Discipline from King Crimson. This is one of the more dense scores I've seen in quite some time. It's mathematical treatment of meter is astounding. And, the sheer 'discipline' to perform this is off the charts.
Comments
I wish my notation software was able to notate polymetric stuff like that. I'm now working on notating Condemned by Confessor which is full of crazy stuff. There's a part where the guitars are playing a pattern like this: 13/8 + 9/8 (not compound 3x3) + 13/8 + 11/8 (2x). The drums on the other hand play a 3/4 in triplets for 8 bars and 4/4 in triplets for 5 bars and one bar of 2/4. I first wanted to notate the drums in the same time signature, but since it's all 8th note triplets I got in trouble when meters shifted and bars are all odd numbers (9,11,13). So I had to notate it in 3/4 and 4/4. In text I just wrote above the guitar part the time signatures. Would be even more nifty if I had the 13/8 etc. bars for the guitar parts and the 3/4 / 4/4 bars for the drums like this.
Marc Volgers
2022-05-22 10:26:41 +0000 UTCPlease do the Discipline album in extended play
grnmntl
2022-05-05 02:22:48 +0000 UTCthat was really wonderful... thank you! never thought I'd see something like this... thoughtful coverage with a score of such an outlier of a piece. I was at the 2nd-to-last live concert by this incarnation of Crimson, at the Greek Theater in Berkeley in 1982. recordings of the show leave out a lot and don't do it justice. it opened with a Fripp soundscape, as usual, leading into Lark's Tongues pt 3, the intro to which was literally the first thing I learned on the electric guitar. this is a great example of a process piece where the score gives insight into what's going on, but the humans playing it thought of it in a completely different way. anyway, I'm hoping you continue to dig into Crimson in your EPL episodes... loved the one on Red. some of their more recent albums are really remarkable, e.g. The Construkction [sic] of Light, and The Power To Believe. to have gone through phases over half a century that included In The Court... to Lark's / Starless / Red... to Discipline / Beat / Three... to Vroom / Thrak... to Construkction / Power... and most recently the 7-piece band... they really are prog rock's Stravinsky. thanks for tackling what is frankly a pretty forbidding catalog. more power to you! :-)
ax o'lotl
2022-05-04 07:17:35 +0000 UTCI read somewhere that Bill Bruford said drumming Discipline could be the most transcendent experience or worst nightmare.
Michael
2022-05-04 07:07:24 +0000 UTCThe ideas in Randy's comment are perhaps WHY Fripp initially called this band "Discipline"...before realizing that it was, in fact, King Crimson (which he experiences as a certain kind of force or even entity within the music). I would imagine learning to play one's part in a piece like this is intensely focusing...weirdly, by completely opposite means, maybe arriving at a place similar to that meditation might bring one by *emptying* focus...
Jeff Norman
2022-05-02 23:03:40 +0000 UTCGreat job, Doug. Gave me insight into something I’ve been listening to for 40 years. Just a bunch of fabulous musicians. I remember Bruford (one of my favorite musicians) saying that, even though a piece is in 17, as long as you maintain the “dance groove” (in this case the bass drum) you won’t lose the listener. Not surprising Dr. Bruford went on the get a PhD in music following his retirement.
Martin Broten
2022-05-02 20:02:44 +0000 UTCI am grateful for this video and als for the comments listed here. I assume it is legally not possible to share the score, because otherwise you would have done so, right? Love from Germany, Juergen
Juergen Larys
2022-05-02 07:15:04 +0000 UTCMy girlfriend plays bass and piano and the first time she saw those scores, she told me « how can normal human beings play this together and don't mess up ? ». I can read music a bit and used to play drums a bit and I remember trying to play some Bruford tunes was like « the achievment » for any drummer. I never was able to of course.. LOL Great episode!
Jean-Michel LaFontaine
2022-05-02 03:17:21 +0000 UTCThanks. I've replaced the video to fix the typo.
R. Douglas Helvering
2022-05-01 21:55:52 +0000 UTCThanks for your kind words. I enjoyed this one! I've updated the video to correct my original typo.
R. Douglas Helvering
2022-05-01 21:55:20 +0000 UTCThanks Doug for this, fascinating I think is the word. When you think that they did play this live in front of audiences, just the 4 of them, for many years.... isn't it mindblowing? The last time it was played live was 7th December last year in Japan, their second to last ever gig - but that was the 7-piece KC. Having seen this, it's made me wonder how it was expanded between 7 players, who took which part...
Chris Ramsbottom
2022-05-01 18:24:32 +0000 UTCExcellent!!! I'm so glad you have finally started to delve into the Discipline album, one of my all time favorite albums. Love the insights about time signatures, rhythms, etc.
BRIAN MILLER
2022-05-01 16:29:16 +0000 UTCThis is awesome, Doug. Since you started in on KC I've been waiting for you to get to this stuff. There is much more in this world to explore, and IMHO this would be the sound that has influenced so many musicians that would come after. Another thing to keep an ear out for now would be Robert Fripp and the League of Crafty Guitarists. Thanks for doing this.
JT Siren
2022-05-01 14:29:20 +0000 UTCThis song forms the blueprint for the '80s Crimson, although ultimately the band chose not to explore the approach as much as they could have. The piece itself exhibits some very interesting aesthetics beyond the complex interrelation to the shifting meters: Other than Bruford's accents, there is very little in the way of dynamics in terms of volume, note weight, etc. The dynamics are entirely the result of tonal center and switching to shorter or longer note lengths. Even the dynamics from Tony's double-stops comes simply from the pattern and the fact that they are double-stops and not single notes. They are layered over Belew's part in a way that provides accents to certain notes he's playing without actually playing accents. It's designed so no single musician stands out from the others, but all are integral for the piece to work. Despite the complexity and the density of notes, it has an amazing, hypnotic groove. As a musician (guitarist) this groove is dangerous when trying to perform the piece because it's so easy to get lost in the groove and lose your focus as to where you are within the piece. Starting in this era, the music of KC is frequently written in a manner that requires focus and the musician's attention throughout the song or they'll get lost. And yes, this has happened to them live many times. From a performance standpoint, playing the same repetitive part cleanly is surprisingly difficult. It's also very difficult to consistenly play the correct note lenghts, especially on guitar where one or two fingers may be anchored. Retaining your attention/focus for the duration, especially when you have so many other potential distractions (hitting a wrong note, getting lost in the groove, the audience, etc.) is perhaps even more so.
Randy Hammill
2022-05-01 14:24:37 +0000 UTCAs incredible as it is for four to slide through this, the big band version is pretty awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e57DDrpY2lA
Steve MacArthur
2022-05-01 14:10:32 +0000 UTCNo. The Chapman Stick is a guitar/bass-like instrument primarily played by two-handed tapping. They come with various numbers of strings, separated into a bass portion and a treble (guitar) portion. While you could play the opening bass lines on a standard bass, when it splits into two sections, he’s playing the bass part tapping with his left hand while simultaneously playing the double-stops with his right hand on the upper strings. The instrument basically looks like a wide guitar neck but is held nearly vertically so both hands have full access to the fretboard. A regular bad is not set up for the soft touch that a Stick is, nor does it have the pitch range. Tony’s has 12 independent strings, and it is set up with the bass strings in the center. Here’s a video by Tony explaining and demonstrating the instrument: https://youtu.be/78hlYpydv5g
Randy Hammill
2022-05-01 13:46:11 +0000 UTCoh this is well timed. I just bought a copy of this album last week :) However, you may want to adjust the titling of the track on your title box in the video You have it as "Disciple"! :)
Mike Hill
2022-05-01 13:22:47 +0000 UTCThe Celtic knot is an apt symbol for the piece. It's a wonderful piece of music. Nice work Doug, really enjoyed you picking that apart.
FallingLeaf
2022-05-01 10:41:25 +0000 UTCAmazing stuff! Thank you for doing a video on the discipline era of King Crimson. It’s mind blowing to hear this stuff being played live. They managed to pull it off concert after concert up until december of 2021.
Dennis Nilsson
2022-05-01 08:47:27 +0000 UTCSome explanation of the Stick I think is called for, Tony Levin is famed for playing the Stick, I am no musician could he have played this on a standard electric bass.
Michael Brown
2022-05-01 08:07:18 +0000 UTCHeavily influenced by Gamelan music and also seemingly Minimalist composers like Steven Reich. This piece seems to use Steve Reich's phasing idea like with the composition, "Piano Phase". I bought Discipline when it came out when I was in High School, and it had such a lasting influence on me. When I went to college and was introduced to Balinese Gamelan Music and Minimalism, I was certainly ready for it!
MARK KNOWLES
2022-05-01 05:20:51 +0000 UTCI had a piece in mind this week by Bruford Levin Upper Extremities (BLUE) that I was going to recommend -- then the recommendation bot went down. The piece is Etude Revisited and also features polymeter. I think Bill is playing 5 with one hand and 7 with the other on that one.
Richard Moore
2022-05-01 04:56:25 +0000 UTCFor some more "math rock" in a modern style check out giraffes?giraffes! My favorite is rite of summer but I Am S/H(im)e[r] As You Am S/H(im)e[r] As You Are Me and We Am I and I Are All Our Together: Our Collective Consciousness’ Psychogenic Fugue is also a tremendous track, mind blowing stuff. Keep it up!
Jordan
2022-05-01 04:24:58 +0000 UTC
