Modern Horizons Primer (And Some Questions)
Added 2019-06-06 22:57:15 +0000 UTCHey All!
Luis came down with a fever and probably the flu, so we've been scrambling a bit to get a co-host for the Modern Horizons Set Primer show this week.
Never fear, though, we secured OG LR co-host Ryan Spain! Ryan and I will be recording the show tonight (Thursday), and it should be up that same night.
Additionally: I am going to be doing a visual version of this one to try out how it comes out. Look for that on YouTube once I'm done editing it.
Now you are updated :)
As far as my questions, I wanted to ask our most involved listeners (that's you!) just for any thoughts on something I've been thinking about a lot with regards to the Set Primers vs the full Set Reviews (where we go over every card).
When it comes to these Modern X, or special sets of varying names, we have a philosophy behind why we do Primers rather than Set Reviews for them. I basically want to run that philosophy by you as a way to check in and make sure that our ideas still hold up.
The Philosophy: With Masters sets, or other limited release sets like Modern Horizons, they cost more money. Each draft can be really expensive. They also are limited in print run and usually don't last long. The window to draft them in real life is like 1-3 weeks usually, on MTGO it's about a month, and on Arena (so far anyway) it's nothing. When we last asked our listener base how often they drafted these sets, the number was between 0 and 1.
With that in mind, the primers make more sense because:
1. It doesn't make a ton of sense to go to the considerably huge workload that is a full set review if people are only drafting the set a time or two.
2. A Set Review is good to have as something to reference for the entirely of the sets existence as a draftable format; usually around 3 months. These sets don't have that window.
3. If you are only drafting a set a couple of times, knowing every card doesn't actually prepare you for when you sit down. You need to know what archetypes are available and what you are looking for within those archetypes so you can come away with a sweet deck the one time you draft the format.
There are other smaller reasons, but those are the broad strokes.
Are we still in the right place with this thinking? Do the primers do what you need them to do?
Thanks as always,
Marshall
Comments
I’ve always loved the primers. I tend to jam a bunch of these drafts on MTGO, but I understand that’s not the norm. One thing that would be neat (and not drastically straying from the current formula), but perhaps doing a quick grade of the top 5 cards you’d like to see in the varying archetypes extending discussion ~2-3 minute utes per talking point could go a long way in making something a little more concrete.
Thomas Cuff
2019-06-09 04:49:59 +0000 UTCFirst of all: Best wishes to Luis to recover quickly! I just finished listening to the episode and I liked it! I think that these special sets usually require a much higher level of Magic skill and I think it is good that you actually talk on that level while discussing the set instead of focussing too much on details. The bread-and-butter rules still apply but we have the regular sets to learn about these :-) In a similar vein, it would also be cool to have a set primer for the current Vintage Cube by Luis. I could imagine that this would be a very entertaining show. Thanks for the nice show! May the Man-o-Wars ever be in your favor!
Jörn Bethune
2019-06-08 08:58:19 +0000 UTCI agree with all of your points Marshall, and in fact, I thought this episode was particularly good at painting a picture of the archetypes and format as a whole (based on your initial impressions of course). Getting Ryan's take on this format from a game design perspective was very interesting as well. Thank you for checking in with us, your listeners . . but I think you have a good feel for what the listeners want from these episodes.
TheIvanhoe
2019-06-08 01:17:47 +0000 UTCI definitely agree on the value proposition favoring not putting as much effort into a full set eval for a set that most people are only going to draft a couple of times due to printing or pricing concerns. Your logic is very sound there, and the primers are a solid middle ground that I have gotten value out of. However, I will say that Battlebond, Conspiracy 2, and Unstable have pretty easily been my favorite draft experiences since I got back into Magic. And while most people are only going to draft that kind of set once or twice, if there were ever a time where Wizards was like "Conspiracy 3: Untethered from the Bonds of Battle is on Arena and MTGO and we're printing to order for the next year", at that point I'd think it would be totally worth revisiting the policy and doing a full review because that set would probably see a lot more play and I think that content would be really fun and useful to listen to. On a tangential note, I think a full set review of one of the MTGO cubes would be fun and informative, albeit probably a ton of work. I definitely want to hear what grade you and Luis would give this Ancestral Recall card, it seems okay.
Paul Barrett
2019-06-07 18:06:40 +0000 UTCHaven't listened to the modern horizons material yet, but you got it right. I want to know the archetypes and important interactions more than a deep dive. I've liked what you've done on previous smaller print run sets. I'll play these sets 1-2 times and just want a fun, flavorful experience. Thanks!
DOUGLAS R GREER
2019-06-07 17:22:35 +0000 UTCI want to weigh in with my 2 cents; I wish you did full set reviews rather than primers for Masters or Horizons sets & draft products. The first part of my reasoning is purely selfish, I actually draft much more of these supplemental products than their prime set counterparts. This is because the phantom drafts on Mtgo are basically cube queues that I find really good fun. I am aware this makes me an outlier among players. Secondly I think you’re actually underestimating the value full set review shows have for a listener who isn’t as interested in drafting them. The ‘level up’ skill of a set review is one of card evaluation, and card evaluation of a high powered high synergy environment is a lot more interesting than discussions of M20 are likely to be. Thirdly I don’t think the primer’s are that helpful for a Masters set. The important picks in a masters set are often a power level card (like bolt) against a high synergy card (like myr enforcer), and a primer before the set is in your hands is unlikely to help with this. I actually think, given full set reviews are likely too much work, it’d be better to wait a couple of weeks until you guys have drafted the cards a few times, maybe made a couple of videos and then do an equivalent to the “archetypes” episode you do for most sets. Imagine trying to do an archetypes episode based solely on the visual spoiler; in a regular set review you’ll say things along the lines of “I’m noting this for that black white life-gain theme; so we can see if that comes together” the full card set is not usually enough to judge archetypes viability on. I will close with what would be an easy call for me: if a masters set is released on Arena one day: wouldn’t you then do a full set review? Especially I it was the ranked draft for a few weeks? Thanks again or the great content. I’m sure I’ll enjoy the show either way. :)
Jethro
2019-06-07 11:53:11 +0000 UTCThe only caveat with your reasoning I can see is for those of us attending tournaments with these formats. MF Vegas is MH1, for example, so maybe a later episode with a quick sealed primer?
Spencer St. James
2019-06-07 04:41:16 +0000 UTCAgree 100% with your approach and reasoning. I most likely will not draft this set at all; which doesn’t change the fact I will enjoy listening to the primer. A set review would be way too much, though.
Simon Huhn
2019-06-07 03:40:21 +0000 UTCI vote to keep the primers rather than a full set review for a balance of content and sanity. With these sets my group often also ends up doing a draft or two sometime after the main window, since it’s easy to get a box or two, but harder to get everyone together during a limited window. Primer shows are nice because I can re-listen to one if I am playing a month from now, but I’d be unlikely listen to a full 6+ hours of set review in preparation for one or two drafts.
Jacob Creed
2019-06-07 02:55:42 +0000 UTCI think your reasoning is solid, but do keep an eye on how Modern Horizons plays out. The prices are comparable to Masters sets, but the set will be printed to demand and contains enough cards that the set may see a longer shelf life. Certainly it seems like WotC hopes as much. Obviously by the time it becomes obvious exactly how this fits into the average player's life it'll be too late to change approach, but if this winds up representing a new paradigm for supplemental product, it might inform future thinking on this topic.
Matthew Taylor
2019-06-07 02:34:27 +0000 UTCHi Marshall! I think with this set I'll be drafting more than regular Masters sets due to the slightly lower price point. Also, there's a number of GPs coming up using it, so definitely will be getting in a lot more reps. I do agree that the primer format probably makes the most sense in effort vs utility for the listener base at large. Perhaps an extra little highlight on rares you guys are excited to draft/buildaround. Might even be a fun sign off to hear some silly nonsense "combos" LSV is looking forward to executing.
Parker
2019-06-07 01:15:11 +0000 UTCI'm good with the primer approach. I expect to draft Horizons at least once and possibly no more. I'm like a lot of mtg players who have been converted by Spain the Evangelist to move from mtgo to mtga. I only ever log on to mtgo to cube, which remains the purest form of magic (wink, to Luis). LR continues to be the highlight of my podcast consumption each week. Keep it going!
Matt Jeziorski
2019-06-07 00:37:30 +0000 UTCTL;DR: Primers are perfect for me. Also, this is a good opportunity to say hello to you and Ryan. I've listened to every episode, going back to the beginning, was a Kickstarter sponsor (one of my cubes still has the LR sleeves), and am obviously a Patron now. Marshall, you're crushing it, as has every one of your co-hosts on the ride. Nuts and Bolts, sign offs (not to mention 5 drop or zombie), quadrant theory and everything Luis brings; all have been great, and thanks for being so professional, week in and week out.
Curt Frueh
2019-06-07 00:06:31 +0000 UTCI agree that using an episode for a primer of these sets sounds about right. And focus more time and episodes on the current t set or level up topics as you've been doing so far. I hope Luis gets better soon. And, a question for Ryan to consider for this episode: what do you think it will happen in Arena after rotation?
Antonio Valdez
2019-06-07 00:05:58 +0000 UTCPrimers are perfect! Without any guidance I would NEVER play these sets. With the primer I dare to enter one draft at best – I'm not sure a full set review would push me any further :)
Mo
2019-06-06 23:42:58 +0000 UTCI agree with the others, a primer show seems like a good balance in terms of effort/reward. :)
Tim Boura
2019-06-06 23:42:31 +0000 UTCI like the primer format for these generally. One difference though id that this is not a limited print run like the masters sets which compounds the issue of the high price. I would stick to the current format for sets that don't have a reasonable price point.
Kari Malsom
2019-06-06 23:40:30 +0000 UTCThe primer format is perfect. I rarely get a chance to draft these formats even once, and the primer helps to establish the archetypes and get familiar with the format without the stress of feeling like you need to know every card. If you guys did a full set review, while I’d listen because I love listening to LR, I wouldn’t get much more out of it than I get out of the primer. Also, as a side note, it’s awesome that you’re asking these kinds of questions. It shows you’re constantly trying to improve LR where you can and keep in touch with the audience. You guys rock.
Alec Lancaster
2019-06-06 23:32:19 +0000 UTCI joined yesterday and am happy to share my input. I think the primer makes perfect sense for all of the above reasons, plus this type of set has consistently shown deeper strategy requirements which leads to ranking / rating the cards in a vacuum not capturing relative value to archetype and synergy. To me, the important color pairs, top commons, build arounds, sleeper cards, traps, format speed, quirky rule interactions (changeling *cough*) etc. have been more useful than a card by card breakdown. Like you said, that level of effort is most useful when there is time to leverage it fully and look back on it thoughtfully for lessons learned. A perceived luxury not shared by most of the listeners for high cost low window sets.
Christopher Garcia
2019-06-06 23:28:38 +0000 UTCYour reasoning remains solid in my mind, as I generally draft these types of sets about once. Thanks for all you do!
Justin Brunson
2019-06-06 23:28:02 +0000 UTCAlso, would love to get Ryan's speculations on when, if ever, we'll be seeing these type of bonus sets in Arena.
Jaeger
2019-06-06 23:27:38 +0000 UTCThanks for the check-in, Marshall! I agree with the reasoning you wrote out. It also got me thinking that kicking off each regular set with a primer would be helpful, and then following that with the card by card set reviews. This gives people the basics they need to get started, and allows y'all to gather more data and learnings before committing to five hours of in-depth set review. Set reviews would be a more useful look-back-and-reference tool if they weren't based on speculation + past experience, but also current in-game. Pushing back the set review by just a week to gather experience could increase the accuracy and quality of such a big project, and a primer could easily fill that gap to satiate listeners like myself.
Jaeger
2019-06-06 23:26:01 +0000 UTCWhy I would love a four show to listen to I don’t think it is necessary for the amount of times someone drafts the set.
Trevor Hayden
2019-06-06 23:12:40 +0000 UTCI feel your thinking is spot on. I draft every weekend and yet I’ll hit one of these special sets between 0-3 times. The current method is great prep and I feel like I learn something every time. You would have to sacrifice some of the other shows you do to do more on the modern X sets and I don’t think it’s be as valuable as what you do now.
David Ewing
2019-06-06 23:11:02 +0000 UTCHi, Marshall, just joined the patreon a couple of weeks ago but I’ve been a listener for a couple of years now. For me, I still think the primers are best as akin with the previous research, I can only really get 2 drafts in due to the financial component. It would also be beneficial to highlight a couple of key commons that fit those archetypes well (pretty sure you have done that in the past but I just cannot remember) or even the flexible uncommons to watch for. Sad Luis came down with illness but I’m excited for Ryan’s take. Thank you for the awesome work!
Cole Pelger
2019-06-06 23:07:59 +0000 UTCHi, Marshall! I think that primers are just fine for these types of sets. There just simply isn’t enough time in terms of being able to go through weeks and weeks of multiple drafts to get a feel for the format like there is for the standard sets that come out. Before you know it, the next set comes out and almost everyone moves on. With the GP coming up for MH1, this is especially important to go straight into the primers because time is very limited (no pun intended!).
Mark Arucan
2019-06-06 23:04:23 +0000 UTCI think you are right on. I'm hoping to draft the set 1-3 times at my LGS. I like having one episode from y'all in the set to get my bearings, but then I'm happy to go back to regular episodes.
Matt Cromartie
2019-06-06 23:03:35 +0000 UTC
