Fighting Games Might Be F💣💣💣ed | Future Genre Hopes? | State of Fighting Games 2025 | Cutting Room Floor
Added 2025-06-26 22:58:29 +0000 UTC
Hello Enlightened Members of the Gentry!
Here is my Gentry Exclusive Cutting Room Floor episode about my thoughts on the state of fighting games right now and how I am deeply concerned by a number of trends I am seeing that are converging together in really ugly ways. The continued loss of motion inputs is definitely one of them, but I also think their destruction is a symptom of an overall shift and change that I'm not optimistic about. I think the fighting game genre is by the day losing touch with its classic arcade roots and is on an accelerated path to shift its design into much more of a strategy pvp genre or something along those lines.
I also bring up what I think could be an unexpected but interesting shift in direction we might see rising among the legacy fighting game audience, especially as we run out of classic arcade stuff to play.
Thank you so much for supporting the channel, I sincerely wouldn't be able to do what I do without the patrons 💖
Sincerely,
Mark
Comments
In this fighting game landscape where it all it seems like developers are doing is removing core aspects of the fundamental game. I really hope virtual fighter 6 to succeeds in showing how you don't have to.
Bashio
2025-08-08 23:58:45 +0000 UTCYou should check out ''For Honor', I think it's the mixture of Fighting Game and Dark Souls Combat that could have taken over competitive games, I think it was even really popular at one point. Sadly it's owned by Ubisoft, so they couldn't really balance the characters well, then they nickled-&-dimed the players to extinction. So hopefully FromSoftware can somehow find For Honor and give it a spiritual resurrection. * Edit * Just realized something, For Honor and Bushido Blade could be the coolest 3D Sword-Fighter. It could be like SoulCaliber, but with defensive shield and poise armor options & area-of-effect supers (like a volley of arrows or cannonballs or fireballs, idk).
chamor decluette
2025-07-15 18:57:39 +0000 UTCI agree completely nicky! They certainly are not designed to be deep and competitive anymore, that's for sure. Even beyond just playing the games, they are extremely boring to watch now which makes EVO this year especially seem dull and underwhelming. It used to be the most exciting part of the year for me a decade ago (it's been a long time the more I think about it ha).
The Electric Underground
2025-07-15 00:45:32 +0000 UTCHey welcome to the patreon, thanks for supporting the channel! Blazblue centralfiction seems really awesome, I have played it a bit of BB at a casual level on my PS Vita, which inspired me to grab the games on steam, but I haven't delved into them too much. I do think it's a bummer that they are not getting the attention they once did and instead stuff like granblue is at evo instead. It would be cool to try to learn the games in the future though and talk about them on the channel. If there is a new BB release in the future I'd check it out and review it for sure!
The Electric Underground
2025-07-15 00:43:59 +0000 UTCJust got on this patreon finally and was struck with excitement hoping that one day you may give your thoughts on blazblue centralfiction.. me and a lot of other members of the core community are really desperate for a real measured analysis on YouTube of what makes its design so truly genius and long-standing with its incredible launch content and genius design that refines all conventions of the anime fighter into a perfect mechanical package. Most reviews on YouTube do not go in depth of the system mechanics or design descisions at all rather it’s mostly just strive players saying how fun it is to play with their friends in lobbies for 100 ish hours. (Still fine but you get the idea) I remember you mentioning in an older video that you’re sitting on the whole series in your library, and it’d be also interesting to see how you would talk about how the iterative design you always mention can be applied to take a broken, experimental but soulful beginning to the masterpiece that is bbcf. Sorry for the wall of text! I’m definitely using those sweet sweet 3 votes for that game next poll haha
brodequinTheLonelyPoet
2025-07-08 12:29:46 +0000 UTCI think modern fighting games are designed the way they are intentionally to keep the average player playing and buying micro transactions. The mixup heavy design promotes player retention by keeping your W/L ratio around 50/50 since an average player can even beat a more skilled player by guessing right. Mixup heavy games also trick you into thinking the netcode is better than it is, while a more reactive game would show all the flaws. Rushdown meta is also a lot easier to learn than defense, and universal mechanics make learning matchups not as important.
nicky negative
2025-07-08 00:23:31 +0000 UTCYeah i'm similar in that I have a lot of short term skepticism of the trends we are currently seeing, but long term optimism that some interesting stuff will rise up in the future, as that is the life cycle of art one way or another ha. I've heard the critique of removing motion inputs made that having a bunch of dedicated buttons is more complicated, which is true in a sense of elegance of design. That is why arcade games tried to make use of motion inputs and small amounts of buttons in the first place, to make sure the design was elegant and natural. That being said though, in terms of competitive play, separating out motion inputs into dedicated single press inputs is always going to be faster and more effective, even if it does end up being an absurd amount of buttons. Think of modern PC gaming and how all competitive FPS players use mouse and keyboard, it's just too fast and direct to compete with. So I think if the argument is framed from the angle of elegance of design that makes sense, but in terms of competitive edge the single mapped out button is OP ha. Great comment Mister Mama Mia :-D
The Electric Underground
2025-07-05 03:14:00 +0000 UTCGreat point about frame traps! and no classic fighting games don't have them nearly as much because armored moves weren't nearly as common, also once upon a time moves were negative on block and whiff ha. In tekken now especially, moves are extremely safe and punishing offense reactively is an uphill battle, so instead the strategy is to go for a bunch of constant safe strings and try to frame trap the opponent. It feels so spammy and the nerfs to the movement system make this even worse. I absolutely feel your frustration Ushi.
The Electric Underground
2025-07-05 03:07:35 +0000 UTCThat's a cool video idea!! Yeah I have an old review of shredder's revenge and the jist is that a lot of the fundamentals of the genre aren't being represented and being overwritten by more superficial systems. I need to do my top 10 beat em ups of all time vid here soon and that'll explain what strong beat em up design look like. Though now that I think of it, you can check out this old discussion about beat em ups between me and bog: https://youtu.be/SYw7J2YQWC8
The Electric Underground
2025-07-05 03:02:38 +0000 UTCGlad you liked it! Yeah it's pretty close to a fully produced vid ha, just a little more relaxed with the editing. I want to give you guys some cool exclusive stuff :-)
The Electric Underground
2025-07-05 02:59:48 +0000 UTCOh man that's a bummer!! Patreon video player seems like it might be a little funky. It might be a pain in the hard drive, but you could download the video by pressing the little dots and watch it that way.
The Electric Underground
2025-07-05 02:58:55 +0000 UTCAnyone else having problems with the Patreon mobile app? The video player gets stuck halfway and I can't finish the video.
RC
2025-07-04 19:11:18 +0000 UTCI feel like this video is ready for YouTube. I'm surprised you didn't upload it
Florida sucks
2025-07-02 20:31:33 +0000 UTCI would love to hear some elaboration on your point about beat em ups early in the video. As someone new to the genre, I can’t see why some of the more modern features/trappings of games like Streets of Rage 4 or Shredder’s Revenge are so awful that it makes them an insult to classic beat em ups, or that they signal the death of the genre. I thought that even the people who prefer the classics still generally liked those games overall. If anything, character action seems like a pretty natural fit to take influence from, since that genre was very influenced by beat em ups. It reminds me of the kind of “feeding off each other” loop of influence you used to get between shmup developers.
niflheimm
2025-07-02 11:55:34 +0000 UTCI've tried a lot with this gen of fighters. They're so dominated by some universal mechanic in their metas that I just can't enjoy them because it constantly feels like I'm just going against characters or bots, rather than just dealing with someone's own gameplan and flaws. I try especially with Tekken 8, and the game is genuinely fun when you go against people that are clearly trying to play 'Tekken', but miserable when you're going against someone spamming frame traps, sukken strings, and heat stuff - win or lose. I play the OG monkey character Asuka too, and they keep patching her weaknesses and it sucks. On top of that, with 3d games, what is with developers so insistent on removing spacing as a skill? It's frustrating. But the thing I appreciate most with your critique on fighting games is motion inputs. I wish more people would realize the implications of removing them. It's not a scrubby 'well if you're good you'll still win' - it's nuance. Guile; enough said. And dropping combos from execution barriers is *exciting* it adds something to the game, otherwise why even have combos, just have the combo starter do all the damage. They add so much flavor to characters, their moves, and the inherit balance of those moves. Also, have frame traps always been so ubiquitous? It's not something I really look into until 7 or so years ago. But they seem everywhere in over-abundance now. And frametrap city is the intermediate experience now. Just learn that and knowledge check everyone with rushdown until you plateau lol. Maybe it's just because that information is so much more widespread that I see it so often now. Big rant, but it's frustrating seeing this happen. More frustrating the player base doesn't seem to care because it's for 'accessibility'
Ushi Mushi
2025-06-27 23:49:15 +0000 UTCThat s such a great way to describe the difference crew! I may have to mention that in a video or something and give you a shout out ha. One audience wants to be in the zone and the other wants to zone out. Very poetic and accurate ha
The Electric Underground
2025-06-27 15:42:21 +0000 UTCWhat an awesome comment musashi! Yes it's really clear how the RPS element of fighting games is becoming more and more heavily emphasized because all of the system that override pure RPS like movement, spacing, and input complexity are now being reduced and in their place modern fighting games are just adding little exceptions to the RPS rules like Rock has super armor and you can roll paper twice ha. In the end though, like you are pointing out, the many aspects of the genre we love are just getting removed.
The Electric Underground
2025-06-27 15:40:31 +0000 UTCWell, I'm an optimistic guy, so I just like to think of this as a transitional period. This is a new generation of talent, but unfortunately it's one that knows what legacy looks like, but can't actually recreate it themselves. It's like knowing what electricity and the internet is, and going back in time to tell the people of 1800's America what those things are but not knowing anything about how to make them. The good thing is that all the knowledge is here, it's around, it can be learned today just fine and dandy, but we have to deal with the self proclaimed savants' artistic ramblings before they actually sit down to learn something important. I just think it's important to note that a lot of the people who speak up and about fighting games aren't happy with how things are. Even Maximillian and many other notable figures are opposed to losing motion inputs, the problem is they can't explain why they're so necessary, ironically their points boil down to making it easier since the huge button layouts of games like 2xko are harder to utilize than motions. There is fatigue, there is want for something better. But even then, I do think the generation of fighting gamers who play as many games as possible and burn themselves out is the one to stay. The churn and burn of mass quantity is... well, I like it. I think it's very arcade in nature, but I recognize the way it worked out was different. When you go to a physical place where all these games are hosted, and they all basically cost the same amount of money to get a play in, it's extremely easy to dip in and out of games, play what you like, swap when you get bored, etc. The problem now is just that the cost is so high, the balancing is too frequent, and the content is too much. The real arcade quality was the abundance of sequels, and not just replacement sequels, but standalone competitors in the same franchise. SF3 could never compete with 2, so it was made with a completely different cast and mechanics to sit alongside it and have no one bat an eye. Now, games have to manipulate you into making their game your main game. Infinite content, battle passes, seasons, skins, balance updates, whatever. Anyways, my hope for all of this would be to make lower stake games with lower balancing, less content, and just end up with more games for cheaper prices. I appreciate SF6 for holding down it's fort, but I want to see Capcom make multiple fighting games, I want them to have teams dedicate their efforts to different ideas entirely, but seeing them all work on 1 singular game and nothing else just makes me bored with it even more than if they didn't touch it. With the recent Arc Sys presentation, I understand the immediate concern for their approach to fighting games from now on, but I like to imagine that their dedication to a new branch exclusively meant for AA action games is signs that they're willing to publish/make games meant for niche audiences on purpose. I mean they already do with Under Night 2, I know new Melty had some strange decisions but 2 is keeping anime fighters strong, a true Atlas under the world. The appeal of fighting games are eternal and the ways we make pvp combat games will evolve, and I believe for the better over time, but hopefully we don't have to wait until internet accessibility is so good that indie games can actually be played, and we can see big studios actually start going hardcore on purpose.
Mister Mama Mia
2025-06-27 15:35:53 +0000 UTCOhhh man that is a bummer, yeah we might be waiting a really long time for this game.
The Electric Underground
2025-06-27 15:22:05 +0000 UTCOh for honor is definitely interesting but I m thinking a game that more specifically adapts souls and fighting game design together :-) I believe for honor is a bit more of a multiplayer fps influence, it s seems pretty cool though.
The Electric Underground
2025-06-27 15:21:19 +0000 UTCThanks my dude! Yes souls pvp has so much untapped potential since they have a giant built up pool of legacy skill. I'm really excited to see how duskbloods turns out and if that becomes an interesting competitive game I might also join in on it. The spirit of Bushido blade lives on. :-)
The Electric Underground
2025-06-27 15:18:32 +0000 UTCThat's a great point trooper scout! Yeah the more fundamental your game is, the easier and more reliable it is to balance because the players can always just improve at the game as a whole, rather than specific balancing points causing problems. And the more the fundamentals are chipped away at the less universal the game becomes and then it feels like the Mets of the game is just constantly memorizing matchups and patch changes.
The Electric Underground
2025-06-27 15:15:02 +0000 UTCOh yeah it's crazy how much the game has been reduced down towards being rock, paper, scissors now, rather than the spacing heavy focus it once had.
The Electric Underground
2025-06-27 15:02:44 +0000 UTCSpeaking of Speedkicks, he shared before some interesting tweets comparing Knee vs JDCR matches across T6, TTT2, and T7 and how each game has progressively become less active. T7: https://x.com/Speedkicks/status/1851675013134295521 TTT2: https://x.com/Speedkicks/status/1851690212856070461 T6: https://x.com/Speedkicks/status/1851694953933455757 PhilDX analyzing the 3 matches : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z95DoIvsCxA
Aldrin
2025-06-27 14:48:29 +0000 UTCDead By Daylight, Rainbow Six Siege, and Riot Game balance philosophy is so lame, boring, and frustrating. For me it's like what's the point of learning the meta if it's going to radically and frequently change on the whim of the developers? Even if I do dedicate to learn these frequent radical changes, It feels like gambling wondering whether whatever I learned and practiced was either worth it or a waste of time, or if your legacy skill will still be applicable overtime with these patches. I think the reason why CS2 didn't crash out like SFV or Tekken 8 is because the core gameplay is largely the same (for better and for worse), which means your fundamentals and legacy skill from CS:GO is still (mostly) transferable.
NCR Trooper Scout
2025-06-27 14:11:08 +0000 UTCGreat episode and I don't even play fighting games. The discussion on inputs reminded me of the holy war between Vi and Emacs LOL. Programmers will know what I am talking about. I actually enjoy watching Elden Ring PVP sometimes, so I can see your prediction happening. Next year Duskbloods a PVPVE game by From Software is coming out. Will be interesting to see.
Oleg Tolmatcev
2025-06-27 08:56:21 +0000 UTCBtw, that Souls-style fighting game you’re talking about has already been made. It’s called For Honor.
cuto
2025-06-27 02:23:49 +0000 UTCThe depressing news about VF6 in the latest SEGA financial report is that they gave release windows for all the other upcoming games except VF6, and since the schedule goes as far as mid-2027, it doesn’t look like VF6 is coming anytime soon.
cuto
2025-06-27 02:14:37 +0000 UTCI think this is a really important topic and I couldn’t agree more. I liked the part about how VF and SF are two opposite sides to the coin of input design but still part of the same coin of complexity. And you’re right a lot of the issue is not only are they trying to make FGs more accessible, but also not injecting in the natural depth in ways like VF where they still come full circle and end up requiring advanced inputs and skill expression in higher level play. Rather, we are seeing a trend towards FGs being less accessible AND also less deep with watered down, condensed and streamlined interactions. In my view, fighting games have always had 2 major components, the rock paper scissors elements where a large variety of interactions beat out each other and you must come to learn how all of these intersect and correctly anticipate your opponent’s actions, and the real time element such as motion inputs, movement, frame data etc. which adds depth to the interactions of the first component. When you begin to streamline inputs, it tends to sort of blend the two components together which can lead to the feeling of an overemphasis of the RPS elements. This kind of defeats the purpose of the genre in my opinion and relates to your question of how far can we change the legacy design of a genre before it loses its identity. When Guilty gear Strive removed the need to manually input things like air dashing or worse, running or backdashing, it made me uncomfortable as a long time guilty gear fan not just because I feel movement skill expression is part of that second component but a defining aspect of anime fighters. Part of the beauty of fighting games is how much they emphasize real time complex decision making, and inputs are directly tied to that. While I don’t think it’s impossible to make fighting games more accessible while retaining their depth, I do think they may need another paradigm shift to work. Just dumbing down our current two models of VF and SF isn’t the right approach. I think part of the problem why it’s hard to do another paradigm shift is simply the nature of motion inputs vs buttons. If we make a new paradigm that’s still able to emphasize real time complex decisions, we might decide to keep motion inputs simplified, but have more rapid interplay between motion and button inputs, for instance the hypothetical way VF6 may be trying to expand mechanics like blocking and jabbing into a more nuanced and technical endeavor. Over reliance on button inputs though kind of just goes back to reinforcing RPS because button presses are instantaneous and tend to have very direct actions and consequences. Meanwhile motion inputs are not set in stone but are dynamic and lead into each other sequentially while both having direct/immediate and indirect/ambiguous consequences in gameplay.
Musashi
2025-06-27 01:36:46 +0000 UTC@35:17 This two audience problem seems to be happening to a lot of genres right now. Action games have a similar thing (and by action I mean very broadly. FPS, CAGs, Beat 'Em Ups, etc.) I hear a lot of "at the end of the day I am tired and just want to unwind/zone out. Don't make me think."-kind of talk. There are the players who want to engage with the game (e.g. this audience) and then there are the FPS players who just want to left trigger+right trigger or the the arena fighter/"CAG-lite" player who just wants to hit buttons and see their character do cool moves. I like souls games (yes I admit it!) and you might think we are eating good right now, but there are a lot of players and developers who really want the genre to let them turn off their brain and just reactively dodge roll/parry everything without thinking. Edit: Basically one audience wants to "be in the zone" and the other audience wants to "zone out."
Crew Expendable
2025-06-27 01:35:02 +0000 UTCOh yeah I remember rivals of aether cuz my friend insisted on only playing it instead of melee for a year ha. I think where the other platform fighters will always struggle is just the pure IP power of Nintendo and smash. That is like a Venus flytrap for most casual crossover interest ha. I guess if Nintendo stops making smash at some point though, that space could be opened up for another platform fighters. It's interesting how rivals 2 making the move to 3d and a more traditional smash system ended up hurting it as much as helping it with the existing rivals players.
The Electric Underground
2025-06-27 01:33:03 +0000 UTCI would say Smash is a third paradigm of fighting games (the platform fighter) but none of the others really have anywhere near the clout or success of Smash the way Street Fighter's and Virtua Fighter's competitors do. Though Smash's indie competitors (and Smash mods) are probably a healthier scene than standard indie fighting games.
Crew Expendable
2025-06-27 01:21:02 +0000 UTC
