Call for Bonfireside Chat Rekindled Responses
Added 2019-07-21 22:38:17 +0000 UTCDo you have things to say about the middle stretch of Sekiro, or anything else we've covered? Reply in the comments for our next response episode. Please note that we're not to the end yet, so leave your grousing about the Demon of Hatred and love for Fountainhead until the final feedback episode.
Comments
Oh well no worries! I had no general thoughts on the middle chunk of the game itself that hadn’t been covered by you all so that’s what’s up with the lateness so I just decided to talk about some stuff that had been bouncing around in my head this season.
Eli Leslie
2019-07-26 13:05:43 +0000 UTCHey Eli! Unfortunately you have missed the deadline. Apologies for not posting a deadline clearly-- recording this week was sort of all over the place so we weren't entirely sure when we would record this one (turns out, it's earlier today). Also, a note, and this is meant in a warm tone: when we do feedback episodes, we're looking for your thoughts on the game, not your feedback on the podcast. That doesn't have to change the content of when you write in, it just helps if you frame things as about your take on the game instead of your take to the criticism. It makes it read better, and it makes it easier to not feel defensive when reading! Hopefully you write in again when we do the final Sekiro feedback episode.
Duckfeed.tv
2019-07-26 08:24:59 +0000 UTCHope I haven’t missed the deadline! I’ve decided to hold my overall thoughts on Sekiro till the final response call, but thought I may talk about some of the general criticisms laid out in this season here. Just my opinion based on my own experiences, in no way meant to dismiss anyone else’s. Like Bloodborne there’s been a lot of talk about the lack of meaningful loot in the game. While I also felt that impact in BB, I have a very hard time holding this against Sekiro. Simply put, what meaningful loot would there be? There could be more prosthetic tools, but I feel that it would’ve been incredibly hard for FROM to have made more than we what got without killing the excitement of earning a new one. I don’t feel new weapons/armor would have added anything meaningful mechanically to this game’s experience. On the subject of prosthetic tools and their upgrade tree in general, I personally had a lot of fun going through those upgrades. While not all may have been extremely meaningful, I don’t think they needed to be. I had no problem choosing between various upgrades, because in general they each merely make their previous iteration a bit better. And because Sekiro’s not a RPG, you’re not moving towards a build or any such thing, and by the end of the game I had most of the upgrades just from going to that enhancement screen every now and again and buying what I could. The exception to this is the terror upgrade for the shield. That’s a game changer right there. This is already a long response but to end on a positive (negative?) note, I certainly agree that Chained Ogre is a stupid boss to place early in the game, full health should restore after a revive, and spirit emblems should restore to full after death.
Eli Leslie
2019-07-26 02:25:47 +0000 UTCI have probably beaten the game fifty times over by now. On each new run, I look forward to traversing every cliff face, hillside, and tree, jumping and springing forward down all the pathways to the various bosses in the middle of the game. I treat the middle of the game like we all treat Undead Burg and Undead Parish after bearing down those streets so many times: it becomes medatative and exhilarating. Senpou Temple allows so many tactical approaches and makes fighting the regular enemies so dynamic and fluid that it's a joy to stop and cut up some serene walkers before moving on. Bobbing and weaving through all the enemies on your way up to the lookout tower is an absolute blast on every playthrough. Mibu Village and the Sunken Valley have so much charm to them that's hard not to be reminded of just how much you appreciate them, even if you are whizzing by unrestrained. I revel in the freedom the middle portion of this game gives me. It's calming and cathartic, and it's an excellent anticipation to a third portion that becomes significantly more annoying later on...
John Nelson
2019-07-25 11:04:01 +0000 UTCGameplay-wise, I really enjoyed the middle portion of Sekiro. They vary the environments and enemies, and don't go too overboard on the difficulty. The story has some genuinely creepy and affecting moments. The armored warrior seems to be guarding the bridge for the monks without realizing that his son is already dead. "For the sake of my son, put down your sword...Strike me all you like, I am unbreakable. My son will receive the waters." He clearly thinks that they still have a deal. The basket wearer in Mibu village is delightful. Although this does get into the limited story choices in the game. Why can't I help this guy escape, or at least get him some uncontaminated water? Instead, you just come back to find him attacking you. My reactions kicked in and I took him down, which was of course quite unnecessary. What was he going to do, basket me to death? (Along the same lines, given that it takes Inosuke ages to die, you'd think you would get him some medical attention, or at least move him 10 feet to his mom's house.) But I will say I'm getting tired of the anti-immortality trope in fiction. I think it would be great if people didn't inevitably slowly lose their bodies and minds and then disappar into oblivion in a few short decades. The requisite caveat--of course we shouldn't torture children or turn ourselves into fish-obsessed tentacle monsters. The example that bothers me most is Hanbei. Here is a really nice, helpful guy. Unfortunately, he considers himself an outcast, maybe due to his physical appearance. He also seems to be suffering PTSD and survivor's guilt, blaming himself for his master's death. So, he asks you to please help him commit suicide. The proper response to this situation should not be, "Yes, let me sever you with my mortal blade." The game clearly wants you to do it, but I refused. Hopefully Sekiro can help him find purpose and community after all this madness is over.
Paul Thacker
2019-07-25 06:54:13 +0000 UTCGreetings and salutations. I realize the bread I bring to this is stale and my shake may not bring many to the yard, but in regards to comments about the Rekindling of Bonfireside Chat I hoped to specifically show appreciation for the Immortal: Unchained episodes. Purchase of a (new to me) PS4 was made by myself in preparation of the Sekiro drop which I picked up on launch. After a week or two of play, myself and Sekiro had a heartful discussion of our feelings on Pace Of Play: long story short, we have decided to take a break from each other, giving us time to grow and mature seperately. In the interim, however, on the recommendations of your episodes, as well as a few other trusted sources, purchase was made of I:U which has been my diversion of choice for the last couple of months. On that, I play an episode of the BSC coverage before entering an area as a Pep Talk then re-listen to it afterwards, in debrief. The dissection of gameplay and esthetics are thoughtful and measured, artful and accurate, not that I was specifically suprised given the nature of the product that I have come to associate with a lot of Duckfeed.tv content. Appreciation extended for being a source of dissemination, honest and reflective in nature, in regards to a game I found ambitious and intriguing and which a community is suprisingly absent from. Thank you in advance for your attention in this consideration, Philip! 'Praise the Gun!.... no, no, maybe not, thats possibly horrible...
Murder She Rothenberger (Wrote In Burger)
2019-07-25 03:12:12 +0000 UTCRe: What's the deal with the Monkeys? I'm pretty sure the monkeys are based on the ones in Nagano that relax in hot springs: http://www.go-nagano.net/wp-content/plugins/gonagano/uploads/en/shisetsu/107001001/107002001.jpg They're famous throughout Japan and known as funny animals acting in a very human way. So I think the From team just ran with the idea and made them even more human. It still feels like it's played as a gag but one that's informed by a familiar image (for Japanese) I think this it's a good example of one of the biggest differences between the atmosphere of Sekiro and Souls and how it's created. Miyazaki (I think) said that he got the idea of the Souls games from reading European history and fantasy that he couldn't fully understand. Being set in Japan, Sekiro's setting would be far more familiar to Miyazaki and the team, and so the atmosphere in inspired by a difference sense. Each area feels like the team is asking, "How did that place seem to me when I saw it years ago on a school trip?" And extrapolating from there. There are a lot of visual and atmospheric touches that seem designed to evoke familiarity with Japan as it exists now, not strictly Japanese myth. Overall my impression is that: Dark Souls = The unfamiliar and imagination Sekiro = The familiar and exaggeration I can't speak to the cultural familiarity (Fealty to a master, Genichiro being obsessed with the land etc.) but as far as locations go it's crazy how well this game evokes the feel of real-world places.
Dair
2019-07-24 03:33:54 +0000 UTCO'Rin was a very memorable fight for me, and a huge point where the combat clicked for me - specifically that tools are not keys. After throwing myself at her over and over, burning emblems on the axe and cracker spam that got me through Snake Eyes and the Bull respectively, I reached a point where I finally said, "fuck it, if you want to dance then let's dance!". I unequipped all tools and items besides my healing gourd, and figured out how to dance with her timing. She taught me how to be more mindful with my spacing, more intentional with my strikes, and that tools might make the dance a little easier but you still have to learn your steps. I had already liked the game, but I think learning how to dance with O'Rin is where I fell in love with it. A couple of other experiences I had in these areas I wanted to share are: You don't have to find the secret floor to get to Mayor McThirsty, if you jump into the river next to the house you can wall jump off the far bank and catch the grapple point to the attic. I didn't know that was where the secret floor was people were talking about until my 3rd playthrough. I have never fought poison pool Snake Eyes with the area adds, and mostly ignore that shrine behind the statue. From the main path shrine, you just have to kill the one guy on the scaffolding below, then you can fling yourself to the half sunken Buddha head without aggro'ing anyone (they start to alert but stop if you keep moving), slink behind Snake Eyes' back for a stealth deathblow and just fight her 2nd bar by the fog wall. Despite multiple playthroughs I have only beaten Double Ape once. If you come through before beating Single Ape and get your Mibu shrine warp, it doesn't get locked ever and you never have to go back to that cave.
Justin
2019-07-24 00:26:12 +0000 UTCWhile I don’t think the actual fight is that great, the Guardian Ape is easily one of my favorite moments in video games. I was very lucky to have the surprise second phase not be spoiled for me. When I saw the boss only had one deathblow pip I figured From was just being kind since this boss is so radically different than anything we have fought so far in Sekiro. After many attempts I finally figured the big monkey out and chopped off his head. As with most bosses I end up just sitting there not doing anything for a few moments to calm down after a hard fight. Imagine my surprise (and delight) when that fucker got back up and picked up his own head. I love that the designers let the boss just lay there long enough for you to be certain that it’s over. This moment would have been lessened if he got back up in a cutscene or if there was anything to draw your attention to it. The way the ape moves in the second phase is horrifying. He reminds me of a puppet being jostled around from the inside, because that is kind of what is happening. The centipede is controlling it like a meaty sock puppet. This is really shown off when the ape raises its sword in the air for a big downward attack. He is not lifting himself up so much as his body is being dragged upward. I’m glad this surprise was only used once to not cheapen the moment. But I do hope From takes this type of design element into their future playbook. 10/10, would monkey around again.
Matt DiTomaso
2019-07-23 13:40:18 +0000 UTCThe ape fight highlights the reason I dislike multistage fights in From games. The first stage of the fight was incredible fun; a fast, frenetic boss fight against a tough boss with a great character design, the first time he crop dusted me and bounced away I laughed out loud. I feel the fight is fair and all the moves have readable tells. It is tough but after a handful of attempts I made it through with one healing charge and my resurrection spent. But then the second stage starts, now all his moves are different, I have almost no room to make errors and I’m quickly defeated. I learned almost nothing and in order to get back there I had to beat the first phase again. This style of boss fight causes two problems. Firstly, it forces you to get good enough at the first stage that you have enough heals left to get a decent run at stage two. Secondly, it puts a mandatory large gap between learning attempts at the second stage. The same problem is in the ‘bad’ ending of the game where you have to fight a different boss before taking on the final boss each time (also the main ending, but at least I’d learned to fight him before).
John Lister
2019-07-23 07:23:41 +0000 UTCSo, a game where you play as an agile ninja who uses samurai techniques and a fantasy cyborg arm? Highschool-me's dream game. I loved PS2 games like Tenchu and Onimusha, but Sekiro fell apart for me by specifically being a refined product of the PS4 era. While I'd agree that it excels at design by subtraction in a lot of respects, I realized by the halfway point that I'd also been subtracted out of the target audience. I chose to side with Owl, assuming I'd still get to play the rest of the game, just in an ~evil~ way. Instead, I was faced with a final boss I couldn't beat and no way to back out. I tried starting over, sailed through to Hirata Estates, and once again encountered friction. I'd spent a lot of time grinding at Hirata before, so the thought of having to spend any more time there turned me off completely. Unlike Dark Souls, I couldn't try a new build to shake things up, and I didn't want to do the optional fights to power up. And if I didn't like the combat in this combat-heavy game, why was I playing? Too many victories felt like beating Midir in The Ringed City- the satisfaction was spoiled by the frustration of getting there. I decided not to make that mistake again and call it quits. That perfect game for highschool-me wasn't what I was playing. I imagined ways it could've been that: different swords with varying damage and deflect timing, upgrade materials going towards such weapons, or turning the Mortal Blade into risky weapon that uses Resurrective Power and HP. All of this could be considered cruft they cut away for a "pure" combat system, but options like these gave PS2 games a decent amount of built-in difficulty adjustment (in *addition* to explicit Easy/Normal/Hard modes). Another big difference between this and Onimusha (the game responsible for my love of parrying) was the framerate on a base PS4. In my perception, I'd see a frame where an attack was too far away for a deflect, and the very next frame I saw was when the attack had already hit me. A performance mode would've been nice- the game looks good enough that it can survive some pixelation. While I've considered revisiting the game on PC someday with heavy modding for performance and difficulty, there are too many games I'll like as-is to spend the time again. With Elden Ring coming, I understand better how Sekiro fits into the overall From picture, and to be fair, I did enjoy a good chunk of my time exploring in the game. But in the end, it's fitting that Isshin's line when he beat me for the last time was "Sekiro, this is goodbye." P.S. I thought Isshin sounded a lot like Strongbad, so I started calling his Tengu persona "Strongblade".
Sid Menon
2019-07-23 04:55:10 +0000 UTCi’m on ng+ and just killed owl again. he was a wall in my first playthrough and just now in my second non-shura playthrough. i think he is a convincing argument by himself for an easy or assist type mode in the celeste mold. i think if you could tune the damage numbers for this fight, it would be perfect. he shreds through your posture so quickly that it leaves little room to block rather than deflect. that said, as much as it frustrates me, i kind of adore the fight. owl, with his arsenal of dirty tricks, really fights like one imagines a shinobi would.
Violet Sweet
2019-07-23 00:34:03 +0000 UTCI assume Genichiro is allowed in this response. Genichiro showed the best and worst parts of Sekiro for me. As much as SoulsBorne games are praised for storytelling, I appreciated Sekiro’s direct approach to revealing character motivations. Genichiro’s actions and behavior have a stated purpose. I respect the From approach to storytelling generally, but it’s nice to understand a character without grinding for item descriptions or watching YouTube videos. My Sekiro hot take is that there isn’t a single 3+ phase boss fight that wouldn’t be better as a 2 phase fight, and Genichiro is the best example. The other 3+ phase fights introduce some new moves, but Genichiro’s second is more of the same. Why not have that second phase be a feature of the Demon Bell or NG+ rather than the base game? This fight trained me to deflect attack well enough to beat pretty much everything up to the final boss and Demon of Hatred, but this fight and the final boss are the primary reasons I won’t pick up Sekiro for a second run.
Ian Derk
2019-07-22 20:36:02 +0000 UTCEverytime Butterfield says yeaah - he reminds me of the goblin from the two towers who is annoyed that he cant have some meat - otherwise great show(s) you guys 👍
B-Easy
2019-07-22 12:32:35 +0000 UTCHey guys! I left a pretty lengthy comment on the May 6 call for response thread but I had just missed the cutoff. All of my comments there still stand, so feel free to use any of it if it fits. In addition, I'll say that this is the first From game I haven't finished, and I've been a fan of theirs since '95. I know you won't have covered the endgame by the time this records so I'll just say that the asks for getting past the lategame bosses were captial T TOO capital M Much, the final boss in particular. Also wanna echo your disappointment with the poor item finds for people who comb the environments and the general uselessness of the prosthetics. Apart from those gripes, I genuinely did enjoy my time with the majority of the game when it hits its stride in the middle. exploring the areas was great,the verticality and using the grappling hook are awesome, there are many strong fights to be had, and sekiro shows a welcome side of From when they're not bringing the gitgud hammer down on your ass.
Brad Gallaway
2019-07-22 07:46:27 +0000 UTCWalking into the Mibu village for the first time has such a strong impact. it's just the right mix of rotting vegetation, dark corners and the impression of some foul magic hanging over the place. I visited this spoke last so I knew the famous corrupted monk had to be coming up, but even that battle pales in comparison to O'rin of the Waters. For a game that seems enamoured of setpiece duels, bombastic entrances by bosses and dramatic faceoffs, hearing the mournful shamisen music seconds before walking into the clearing to see this mysterious woman simply stood there playing in the dark is an all time audiovisual flourish in gaming for me. Japanese folklore and East Asian folklore in general is full of short and tragic stories of love stories ending badly, and this encounter with O'rin captures the melancholy of these stories immaculately. There is probably some detective work online about how O'rin is connected to the main cast, but I personally prefer this just being an expression of the art, the stories and the poetry of Japan.
Jon Cheetham
2019-07-22 04:40:41 +0000 UTCI worry From might be leaning into their "difficult games" identity because that has gotten them so much success, but at a detriment to their true strength in using game design for storytelling. I notice more and more people comment on how their later games are less user-friendly (respawns placed far from the boss room, having to take time to repeatedly take out multiple adds to make the boss a fair fight) and I worry that this is From trying to live up to the hype the “get-gudd” mentality has built for them. Because of this, more people bounce off their games and don’t get exposed to the interesting and creative ways the studio tells engaging stories. I recently encountered Déraciné and I realized that for all the popularity and goodwill that their difficult games have gotten them, they really excel at telling stories with game mechanics that other mediums can’t accomplish. It made me wonder if they should put more effort into adventure games, or even a walking simulator Do you think that From’s embracing of the identity that the gaming community has placed on them might stop them from expressing their other strengths? I hoped I didn’t phrase this as accusing games like Sekiro as not having good storytelling through gameplay. I love all your shows!
Duff
2019-07-22 02:40:39 +0000 UTCI'm currently working my way through NG+3 on PS4 so while I do love every aspect of this game I'll focus on what the higher runs feel like. FUCK O'RIN ON ANYTHING HIGHER THAN NG+1. she can 2 shot you, moves quicker than a cobra on cocaine, and can become ethereal at will. I gave up. On the positive side I love both the Guardian Ape fights. Even at higher levels it feels fair and balanced. It incredibly difficult for me to rip out his centipede with the spear but it is broken how much posture damage it causes. I'm surprised that hasn't been patched down. The folding screen monkeys is just a trip. I love FROM's attempts at gimmicky puzzle bosses and this one lands for me. Hide and go seek with four monkeys and you can utilize the environment to your advantage if you can strike when the iron is hot. I didn't know about the 4th monkey always being behind you until recently, but I discovered two rooms that show the footprints of every monkey including Do No Evil. I always thought he just ran to one room or the other. This boss is much better executed than another gimmicky boss later on. I'll end with Owl on the rooftop. I beat both versions of Owl on NG+3 today and i find him harder on the rooftop. His use of Lloyd Talismans makes me scream, "Ninja Hacks!" Every time I'm hit. Pro-tip, it does not prevent you from using rice to heal. I could gush for days about how much I love his second boss fight but I'll save that for latter.
Cthulhu R'lyeh Flatagan
2019-07-22 00:57:01 +0000 UTCThe middle third of Sekiro really makes a strong case for the best chunk of a souls game From has done. Varied environments, good boss fights and a pretty strong helping of lore helps make what could be easily considered a long fetch quest shine. Even better since we aren't talking about anything that hasn't been covered yet I can pretend the massive kick in the junk coming up next doesn't exist!
David
2019-07-22 00:32:11 +0000 UTCObligatory I have finished all previous souls’ games and beaten all bosses except for Darkeater midir. I had a lot of trouble with this game, I’m not too good and often I have over levelled in previous games to get the edge over bosses. In Sekiro that was not an option. I did this section in a different order to the podcast, unable to beat Genichiro I began exploring the spokes early beating the gun fort then hitting a dead end. I then went to sempo and got destroyed by an armoured knight. My loaded spear failed to do damage even though the descriptoion said to use it against armoured foes. I went back thinking I was missing something and needed to beat Genichiro; I continued to lose. I play on the pc so I did what most cannot and loaded up the Sekiro fps unlocker mod, this mod also has the ability to slow the world down and speed the character up. I adjusted the world to 80% speed and the character to 120% speed. I still died 5 more times before beating Genichiro. I’ve left it on for the rest of the game, its still hard and I am yet to kill a head-less but the game is now a mountain I could actually climb. At various stages like the Guardian ape and O'Rin of the Water I have increased the player speed to better cope. Although this does break some animations, I would encourage all to do it who have the ability and the want to do the same. It’s your game now, do with it as you will. Love the show and will voraciously devour any content you make in the future.
TTT12367
2019-07-22 00:20:57 +0000 UTCWhat the game lacks in boss tactical diversity, it makes up for in giving many spokes to explore between Ashina Castle and the Wedding Cave. Most of the mini bosses offered a challenge level I enjoyed and exploring a cliff edge could reveal a whole new area of the game. My pace never slowed for long and I gained new power through prosthetics, ability level ups, prayer beads, and the occasional memory. This is the section of the game that sings for me.
Richard Everett
2019-07-21 23:31:31 +0000 UTC
