Watch Out for Fireballs! 384: Hades (Premium)
Added 2023-01-19 15:08:05 +0000 UTCHades is one of our most-requested games of all time. It struck a chord with tons of people when it released, drawing in gamers who had never given action roguelikes a chance before. With its snappy combat and charismatic takes on the Greek gods, it's hard to blame people for loving it. But how does it stand up to other roguelites, a diverse field with tons of heavy hitters?
This week's highlighted project is "Clarion", an upcoming novel by author Nina Dunnic. Check out her work at ninadunic.com!
Comments
Hahaha I love this game so much but I had to turn on God Mode to play it đ I'm just no good at fighting games without a handicap.
Marijayne
2024-10-25 22:07:01 +0000 UTCrespectfully, you're insane. i have 700 steam games and ftl is the only one i have clocked over 200 hours on. can and will go back constantly, i love the down time after surviving a tough battle.
Harry Loomer-Young
2023-01-30 19:35:18 +0000 UTCI havenât tried it, but it looks like it mostly adds or tunes content. From the quick clips it doesnât appear to address the downtime and pacing issues. The issues I have (pause and command, too much time on uninteresting / solved combats, and post-combat downtime) are deeply baked-in to FTLâs core mechanics. Iâm intrigued, since the basic game could use balancing.
John Mickey
2023-01-25 05:47:28 +0000 UTCPeople say the Multiverse mod makes it almost a different game. Have you tried it? (I know nothing about it but I'm intrigued)
Nina
2023-01-25 01:12:54 +0000 UTCI think we were pretty even, on the balance. It's like a B!
Duckfeed.tv
2023-01-24 01:04:30 +0000 UTCAlso another part that I think people were excited about was the queer aesthetic and representation which is pretty rare in mainstream games. So I think that's an important part of its appeal as well.
Mac Taylor
2023-01-24 01:02:42 +0000 UTCI had some of the same issues with the game as y'all did, but I was surprised that the take on the podcast felt so negative for what was a pretty pleasant game overall. Like, I did think it was a bit much to expect me to beat it ten times, but I also didn't have bad feelings about the time that I spent with it. I appreciate your guys opinions and definitely don't demand a positive take but in this particular case it felt like the episode was a bit too harsh on a pretty fun game.
Mac Taylor
2023-01-24 01:01:28 +0000 UTCOne thing that I appreciate about the romancing quests is that once you complete them, it doesn't suddenly change your partner. Meg is still upset at you for beating her up. Than still has to travel for his job. It's a rare sight that either is actually in the mood. Of course, that doubles down on the one-dimensionality.
Kyle Church
2023-01-24 00:12:09 +0000 UTCAlso, Kole, I have bad news about FTL â the design decisions in that game make it almost impossible to return to. The game desperately needs patched to speed up post-combat repairs and oxygen management. There are too many times where Iâve had to walk away while guys do things with no stakes. The runs are WAY longer than you might remember, if you think 40m for Hades is bad⌠I also feel that âpause and commandâ is too powerful in the moment to moment gameplay, which creates a ton of fiddly micromanagement. I beat the game with 60% or so of the unlockable ship variants during school. but I find it impossible to go back to now.
John Mickey
2023-01-23 05:49:17 +0000 UTCI appreciated the push back you guys gave this game. I think I can explain why you found the game such a slog. Itâs a beat em up that you play for 40 hours, not a roguelike. First, the core gameplay doesnât communicate the most fun approach. The game wants you to push play speed to a hyperactive, button-mashing flow state, but the individual enemy designs communicate more methodical approaches with no penalty for going slow. On broader encounter design, it might be the most predictable and non-strategic ârogue-likeâ ever published. The repetitive rooms and bosses make it more like playing an arcade beat-em-up with different characters. Rooms donât test for particular arrangements, skills, or strategic thinking. In most roguelikes, you have to consider âmy current setup is great against this encounter, but bad against this other oneâŚâ That kind of strategic thinking rarely happens in Hades. This leads to solipsistic character building. The choices ONLY matter for multiplying the playerâs preferred DPS method, not solving a variety of gameplay challenges. This reflects in how people talk about their builds â âI like to build up dash damage and run aroundâ or âI combine lightning on hit with jolt and Artemisâs arrowsâ is never countered with âthat works great against X but how do you handle Y?â Since nothing in the game tests for anything besides DPS, the goal is to create a âwinâ button by Styx and just enjoy mashing that over and over. The temple only makes sense as a victory lap, because anything that can beat Theseus can beat Hades. So, itâs a beat em up with one note characters and an insane amount of recorded dialogue.
John Mickey
2023-01-23 05:33:35 +0000 UTCFor an late-game player I'd agree, Hermes or Thanatos is the most bang-for-your-buck if you value power over a chosen build. But both of those require you to play the game nearly flawlessly to get the benefit so I didn't think it would be up Kole's or Gary's alley (not that I don't think they can play flawlessly, just that they tend to not focus on that type of gameplay). My assumption (which could be wrong) is that they were primarily using Skelly's extra Death Defiance or Cerberus' HP buff, since those are easily-recognizable benefits that one might want to set and forget.
Inter-Party Conflict
2023-01-23 04:49:17 +0000 UTCItâs hard to pick any keepsakes other than Hermes or Thanos, a 30% dodge bonus by Elysium isnât hard to get but you need to start farming from the start for them to have meaning late-game impact.
John Mickey
2023-01-23 04:42:50 +0000 UTCIt's interesting that you can choose to hook up with Meg, Thanatos, both of them, OR neither of them. You get the True Ending regardless. I chose last option for two reasons: 1) I'm aromantic, so having "none for me, thanks!" be possible in a scripted game was nice, and 2) more importantly, neither relationship felt earned or interesting. Yes, Supergiant wrote a lot of dialogue for them, but, like, imagine if a rom-com was just a series of brief scenes of the two leads talking in a room over and over and over again, and eventually they've done Sufficient Talking and they kiss, roll credits. Even if the talking followed an arc, so what? It wouldn't be satisfying at all. I think the writers did their best, but the repetitive structure of the game locked Meg and Than into static roles that revolved around Zagreus and kept them one-dimsensional. It was always surprising to catch one of them interacting with someone other than Zagreus; like "Oh right, they're supposed to be *characters*, not just living carnival games for Zagreus to play for progress tokens." Maybe there are some types of video game that dating sims don't fit into very well?
Nina
2023-01-22 03:37:44 +0000 UTCI think it took me either 50 runs or 50 hours to get my first clear. I eventually got the true ending. You can do it! It's interesting that Gary and Kole didn't like there are so many goals to work toward, from House renovations to relationships to unlocking mirror perks and weapons. For me, it was satisfying to make incremental progress on those various ladders even as I failed again and again to escape. Maybe it helped that I wasn't playing it on a deadline to record a podcast, and could just let things play out at their own pace. (I will say: Watching YouTube videos and reading Reddit discussions were really key to my improvement.)
Nina
2023-01-22 03:00:59 +0000 UTCI had a very similar experience! I've played a lot of rogue-lite games, though I've never been super into it as a genre, and I found Hades to be way more consistent and easy to play for me than Isaac/Gungeon/Dead Cells. I think I ended up beating Hades a dozen times in my first 35 runs and enjoyed the first ending (though I haven't done the true ending) without feeling like I was grinding or having too much trouble. Though this was also when the game was in early access and I think a lot has changed since then.
Emily McGrath
2023-01-21 22:17:28 +0000 UTCI keep noticing more and more things about the Hades fight that mirrors Zagreus. He wields a spear that you can use (including the spin attack), he has a Cast similar to your own (including sticking into its target before popping out, much like Zag's blood gem does), he uses a Death Defiance when you defeat him, and if you fight him with Extreme Measures 4, he even summons help exactly like when Zag uses a Cthonic Companion. It's seriously like they said, "What aspects of the player character can we beef up and use against them?" which makes perfect sense, considering who Hades and Zagreus are. Not that I want them to come out with Hades DLC, but it would have been awesome if you could unlock a new Cast that shoots a skull and causes a shockwave if you don't pick up the gem afterward, and if you could summon Cerberus. You'd almost be able to recreate the fight nearly 1:1.
Inter-Party Conflict
2023-01-21 01:27:09 +0000 UTCOkay, but you aren't limited to just one for the entire run. Start a run with the god of your choice (like I said, once they're in the rotation they stay in the rotation for the rest of the run), and once you get out of Tartarus (and hopefully have a couple boons you know how to use well) switch to the keepsake that you need. By the time you're reliably getting to the last couple floors you should be able to get through Tartarus with or without a keepsake, and most non-Olympian keepsakes aren't going to make a difference that early anyway.
Inter-Party Conflict
2023-01-20 23:21:09 +0000 UTCI don't think a non wrpg should ever be isometric, basically. -GB
Duckfeed.tv
2023-01-20 19:12:39 +0000 UTCI wanted to use other keepsakes! Like, a lot of the pushback we've received from this episode are about things that tend to reveal themselves later in the game. Which is valid, but also, if my choice is "Pick one of these buffs you feel like you need to succeed or plan out a build" that's not much of a choice because I sort of need both at this point. -GB
Duckfeed.tv
2023-01-20 19:12:01 +0000 UTCPerfectly respectable. Glad they give that option. That said, I find Hades unique among roguelites for how dramatically it flips from âthis seems really hardâ to âthis is very doableâ at some point in the 20-run neighborhood. By contrast, I still struggle with Slay the Spire 50+ runs later, and still only win something like 10% of my Dead Cells runs. Dozens of runs into Spelunky 2, I havenât come close to winning. Monster Train isnât too bad at low covenants, but still kicks my butt at high ones. I could go on. So I just come back to the general recommendation that if someone mostly likes Hades but finds it a bit overly punishing, that will probably smooth out in another 5-10 hours of playtime.
Ben Taylor
2023-01-20 18:15:26 +0000 UTCI made about 15 attempts, turned on God Mode, and never looked back.
Joseph
2023-01-20 18:05:09 +0000 UTCCan confirm that Charon may be the hardest fight in the game. You "accidentally" pick a fight with him if you pick up a bag of money that rarely appears behind him at his shop and are accused of stealing. "Wait, I didn't mean anything by that, I'm used to just picking up everything I see!" Two Death Defiances and most of my last sliver of life later, I get a discount card to his shop and an unspoken bond with the deathly ferryman. Hermes will later bet that you can't beat Charon twice in a row - a challenge that shows up in The Fated List of Minor Prophesies.
Joseph
2023-01-20 17:47:09 +0000 UTCI'm so excited to listen to this at work today. I work at a children's hospital and listening to you guys in between some real sad stressful shit is so helpful. This game is super fun and also super tough! I've been unable to get past the third boss (basically o&s lol) thus far and I've played it quite a bit. The build I tend to go for when possible is dash damage so I can just zip around wildly and damage foes while I do so. So fun! Also goes without saying (but I'm gonna say it anyway) the music, voice acting and art style are above and beyond.
Kristina
2023-01-20 15:47:50 +0000 UTCIâm a little shook that yâall didnât vibe with the gloves or the gun! My favorite weapon is the bow but really everything is viable. Ill also say I really like enjoyed the grind of this game. It took me 27 attempts to get my first clear, but soon after started clearing the majority of my runs and the real game started when I rolled credits and had most of everything unlocked. Adding heat, trying wacky builds keeps the game satisfying for me after several hundred hours of playing. Easily my favorite roguelike of all time
Steve White
2023-01-20 15:06:33 +0000 UTCGreat episode guys! One thing I really donât like about Hades is the isometric camera view. I didnât mind it in previous Supergiant games because they were built to be more forgiving, but in action games that demand precision, the view feels inadequate for the level of rigor. Enemies get obscured, hits are difficult to line up, and navigating hazards becomes a crapshoot in this perspective. I found similar issues with my recent playthroughs of Tunic and Deathâs Door. Did you guys find it as annoying as I did, or am I alone on this hill?
Naveen Sivakumar
2023-01-20 13:54:57 +0000 UTCI loved your coverage of Hades, but I feel the need to say that I think you two seriously downplayed (or maybe misunderstood) the amount of control the player has over their build. Compared to a game like Isaac or Gungeon (where you choose a starting loadout but any further player choice comes only from how well you use the items and events that randomly arrive, rather than the player actively choosing which items or events will show up) you have a huge degree of control over your run in Hades. The first time you give them a Nectar, each Olympian gives you an equippable keepsake that guarantees the first room of the next floor will have a boon from that god (which, because of how the boon system works, means they're locked in and will show up later in the run as well), meaning you can choose up to four types of boons you're guaranteed to have in your build. (Technically you can't guarantee a specific boon, but with the unlockable ability to reroll rooms or reward sets, you can give yourself numerous chances to get the boons you want.) So if you like abilities that deflect, start the game with Athena's keepsake and you're guaranteed to have a Deflect build. If you like inflicting Weak, equip Aphrodite's. Knowing what type of attacks you're going to have before a run starts puts you in the driver's seat, if you want to be. And this goes hand in hand with weapon choice. As an example, my preferred build is to use the Poseidon sword aspect (which makes casts SUPER powerful and easy to use) and beef up my cast with either Artemis or Poseidon's cast boons. If I so choose, I could nearly guarantee (let's say, 90% of the time) that I'd get the two or three bread-and-butter boons I needed by the end of the second floor, and any legendaries or duo boons would be a bonus (but not needed- my focus is just to get a good cast and a few things that synergize with it). For comparison, imagine if Isaac had the option to say, "I want this run to focus on pills" or "I want to get three Technology items this run" and have it be possible 90% of the time. It takes some work to make this happen in Hades, of course, and it's not guaranteed that you'll break the run wide open (that would require legendary boons and hammers and such that can't be guaranteed) but you still have a huge amount of control over your build, if you want it. (I also think it should be pointed out that the Cast ability, which neither of you used very much, is the source of much of the game's combat variety. It's one of your three or four primary verbs, and depending on which boon you have, it can be a laser turret, a heat-seeking missile that never misses and can crit, an AOE grenade, a mobile blender, a shotgun blast, chain lightning, and more. Use your cast more, fellas!) Anyway, love the show, keep up the good work. P.s.- I'm sure this wasn't intentional, but you both repeatedly misgendered Chaos in this episode. Chaos is only ever referred to as they/them in the game, and is designed to have an agendered appearance, but you kept referring to them as "she". Just a heads-up!
Inter-Party Conflict
2023-01-20 05:45:03 +0000 UTCI think I only managed to beat Hades ~4 times on my first run up, and it's probably just asking too much early game for my tastes. I definitely accept it's possible it was going to break wide open but I felt done with it by then. -GB
Duckfeed.tv
2023-01-20 04:10:56 +0000 UTCI have to wonder if you two fell off the game *just* as the curve was about to smooth out and hit the sweet spot for the next dozen or so runs. (To be clear, this isn't your fault, and might even validate your critique that the game ramps up too slowly.) Putting the game down after beating Hades just 1-3 times feels a little like stepping away from Sekiro right when you reach Genichiro. You had just put in all the hard work, but then didn't really get to enjoy the next 10 hours of empowerment. For example, I think I finally won my first time around run #17. And then my next was maybe #23? But by run #30, I was already on a 5-run win streak. And I won 10 straight from #40 to #50. I've talked to several people with similar experiences, +/- 5 runs. When the wins start coming faster like this, you start unlocking different Aspects of the weapons quite quickly, which I found to be the single-most important feature for adding mechanical variety. It's basically like having a cool Daedalus Hammer upgrade at the very start of a run, except one that you can intentionally choose and upgrade (don't think you mentioned these?). I think it also winds up smoothing out several later game areas. Once the Temple of Styx isn't quite so punishing (thanks to mirror upgrades and weapon aspect upgrades), it becomes the most satisfying area to replay, as there is always an interesting tug-of-war between taking on an additional challenge for more money/boons vs. moving on straight to Hades. I find this is one of the more interesting choices the game throws at you on a per-run basis. I say this not as a Hades superfan, but just as someone who saw the game flip for me around run #25, and part of me wishes y'all could have had a similarly positive improvement in the experience. Regardless, enjoyed the episode!
Ben Taylor
2023-01-20 03:51:22 +0000 UTCThis is definitely the Supergiant Game that wants you to spend the most time with it. Anyone who's been denied of the Boss Heat 4 Soundtrack is robbing themselves, though. I also feel that the sudden realization that you are your father's son when Hades GETS BACK UP is a top 10 moment in gaming. Of COURSE he can. Where do you think YOU got it from?
Lyall Elspeth
2023-01-20 00:18:09 +0000 UTCYOU CAN SWITCH THE MIRROR?!?!
Billiam
2023-01-19 23:12:04 +0000 UTCone aspect I'm surprised didn't come up was how this came out during that initial wave of quarantine in the US? Like, i think all your criticism are fair on paper and stuff but i had a very painless, breezy time with it probbaly bc i was unemployed and forced to stay home and i would play this shit like 6 hours a day and never felt any friction at all. I must imagine others had a sort of similar experience within that first year of release.
Randall
2023-01-19 22:11:57 +0000 UTCI love Supergiant Games but I'm not really into this genre. I love mythology and the story/characters interests me but I never got a clear idea of exactly how many times I'd be playing this one to get the full story. It intimidated me enough to avoid it but with the new one announced part of me is back on the fence again debating on picking this up or just jumping straight into the new one since it sounds like it's got it's own thing going on. I'm looking forward to hearing how this landed for the two of you at work tonight. Thanks for all the content you put out. It makes work way less dull.
greyrain
2023-01-19 18:26:48 +0000 UTCI'm probably closer on the roguelite spectrum to Kole than Gary but I find them fascinating because I can't nail down why some work for me and others just don't. I have repeatedly tried to enjoy Don't Starve and Binding of Isaac (sorry Gary) but I've never really enjoyed my time with them. However, I'll play Hades and Slay the Spire until my eyes bleed. I agree that the feel of combat is great but the narrative elements need to be like 1.5x-2x easier to get to. Great episode guys.
Kalem Wedemyer
2023-01-19 16:55:15 +0000 UTCThis was me. I've never enjoyed roguelikes or roguelites, but my friends were all like "Dude you'll love this one though, it's so good" so I gave it a try and the 5th time I had to completely restart I was so bored and annoyed I just uninstalled it lol
E E
2023-01-19 15:43:27 +0000 UTCI became bored very quickly.
shea dewar
2023-01-19 15:17:38 +0000 UTC
