Bonfireside Chat 264: Subterranean Shunning-Grounds (Part 3)
Added 2023-06-04 20:14:19 +0000 UTCThis is it! What could possibly be at the bottom of this, the deepest of holes?
Actually I think there might be deeper holes in this game.
Hmm.
Comments
Same, of everything I've heard in a From game, it's the clearest and most effective case made for the world having value despite everything. I wasn't planning on doing the Frenzied Flame ending already, but her speech at the Site of Grace made me happy the choice is in the game so I could consciously choose not to do it.
BaronHaynes
2023-08-03 10:16:39 +0000 UTCMy read on the difference between the two and three fingers is rooted in the way in which their respective numbers of fingers reflect divergent perspectives on a (dis)ordered universe. This reading is meant to answer the perplexing question of magnitude that was raised in the episode: If the fingers are manifestations/emissaries/expressions/representations of The Greater Will and the Outer Gods, then why are the Two Fingers dominant when the Three Fingers would at first glance seem to be more powerful? The two fingers organize the world according to the binaries established by the Golden Order, wherein each term of a dichotomy has its rightful place in a system which--at least at the symbolic level--doesn't allow for any gaps or gradients on a continuum. In this system of order, two is the basic unit of difference (inside/outside, included/excluded, sacred/profane, holy/unholy). The three fingers break with binary notions of order, suggesting a fundamental multiplicity more akin to the Crucible. Instead of the orderly difference of the two, which sets up clear distinctions in the world that can then be organized into a hierarchy of domination by Marika/Radagon and their associates, the three generate a new logic of heterogeneity in the Lands Between that escapes hierarchies of the Golden Order. In this sense, The Frenzied Flame proposes the abolition of all orders into the ontologically flat plane of complete flux, the three of the Three Fingers merely being a representational figure for such an ontologically undifferentiated field. That's my reading, at least.
Drew Fleshman
2023-06-12 21:43:06 +0000 UTCThat's a great story
Duckfeed.tv
2023-06-11 18:02:22 +0000 UTCReally like Melina's speech here. I was going for the frenzied ending, but her speech compelled me to avoid it actually.
Ernie
2023-06-11 17:11:21 +0000 UTCCan’t believe I’m saying this: I’m finally caught up on BFSC. Started listening to the Dark Souls 3 episodes in 2018 when a friend left me hanging in the Irithyll Dungeons so I could have some form of companionship through what seemed like a hopeless journey. Told myself when I started Elden Ring that I would subscribe to the patreon once I had finished my first playthrough, and after thoroughly scavenging for every item, ending, and experience the game can offer without new game plus, I started listening to the Elden Ring episodes as I started a new character. I do have to say, I am both surprised and excited to discover that you guys haven’t even finished covering the game over a year after release. I assumed that, like my experience with using BFSC as a companion for every other souls game, I’d simply be listening along to voices from the past. I never thought I’d actually be able to follow along and be current with the show, I might even be able to submit a question for a future roundtable! Incredibly exciting stuff. I digress: Gary’s thoughts on Dung-Eater being a new low from Fromsoft when it comes to characters that are irredeemably awful resonate with me greatly. I’ve never had the same feeling in the pit of my stomach while playing one of these games as I did when I first spoke to his red phantom in the roundtable hold. Sort of on topic, I feel like Elden Ring is the furthest Fromsoft has gone with stories and characters that push into the realm of perverse horridness, what with Mohg and Miquella, the Dungeater, and Seluvis and his puppets. I know a lot these get spoken of with tongue-in-cheek, but so much of it coats these little dark corners of the game in the same icky feelings I got watching the first season of True Detective or heavier films like Valhalla Rising. Would love to hear thoughts on this, if I can figure out how to actually submit questions for a roundtable.
MIKEISTKRIEG
2023-06-10 17:17:23 +0000 UTCYeah, with how much of this is dependent on the nuances in the language in the descriptions I definitely see that.
Authoritan
2023-06-07 17:51:09 +0000 UTCI read that when researching actually, I just didn't agree with the conclusions. The tricky thing with seeking out japanese lore folk is translation. I would feel more comfortable with it if I spoke the language. -GB
Duckfeed.tv
2023-06-07 17:37:47 +0000 UTCOh, last thing, looking for images of the fingers I stumbled upon this Japanese blog: https://introduction1.com/en/2022/09/02/nihonyubi_eldenr/ Not sure how much Japanese lore hunters have been a part of the western discourse, might be interesting getting a take from a native.
Authoritan
2023-06-07 17:06:52 +0000 UTCThought 5: About the meta commentary thing, Marika and Radagon being one person split between a man and a woman would also be quite topical politically these days. I'm sure all this must have come up though.
Authoritan
2023-06-07 16:53:59 +0000 UTCI’m not a lore hound, I’m more of the kind that just let the whole thing wash over me, which I’m saying to let everybody know from the get go this is some low level stuff I’m about to put forth. Thought1: I think the idea that the two fingers and the three fingers making up one five fingered hand might be too obvious not to be the thing. It is very strange, creatively, not to lean into that that logic and imagery, I would think. Thought 2: About the fingers, it is truly a bizarre concept to have there be two gargantuan literal fingers as an entity in the world. I mean, from a purely creative place, where does this come from, how do you arrive at this creatively? What is the anchor of this idea, can it be traced back to a body so to speak? Speaking of body. We have some huge decaying bodies just laying around in Caelid. Could there be a literal connection? I know it sounds prosaic and maybe not as interesting as some cosmic being taking a shape we’re familiar with to communicate with us, though I would argue that in itself is truly bizarre, why a giant hand? That doesn’t really make much sense. It a makes poetic sense, but not that much sense in-universe. Though that may be moot, it doesn’t make much in-universe sense for bosses to be giants in-fight and normal sized outside of it either. We do have those huge skeletons in Caelid though. Thought 3: A burning question about Marika. I think we can presume that Marika and all the other gods were created by R.R.Martin. He’s an American, and Marika sounds an awful lot like America. It sounds even more like ‘muricah! Do you think he might have snuck in a meta commentary on the state of your country? Taking that a step further, Elden Ring being about people with two sides, split you might even say, a characteristic quite often applied to the States these days. Thought 4, just stray after 3: Looping it back around to the fingers, they terminate in the same place, which is to say, they are also split and one and the same at once.
Authoritan
2023-06-07 16:49:44 +0000 UTCGood point. For someone so invested in helping the weak and downtrodden, Miquella sure made it difficult to reach sanctuary. I wonder how the hell Mohg strolled in and out so easily.
Mansoor
2023-06-06 21:06:59 +0000 UTCI definitely had it whiff on me, but I might have tried it in the second phase. -GB
Duckfeed.tv
2023-06-06 18:43:43 +0000 UTCyeah seems like it’d be easy to miss using it since the phase change is at an HP threshold and you’d want to save it for when he gets HP back with the Nihil when you can’t use it anymore.
Karl Germ
2023-06-06 15:05:28 +0000 UTCI came here to say this as well.
Sean McGee
2023-06-06 14:39:37 +0000 UTCI think the idea of the 2 and 3 fingers once being a combined entity of 5 fingers is pretty interesting in terms of what it may imply for a creation myth in Elden Ring. The tarnished, and other 5 fingered (per hand) beings in this world, may be created in the image of these celestial beings. It’s kinda interesting in a cosmic horror sort of way that the way in which we resemble the Gods is not in our general bodies, but in a specific body part. Maybe the relationship between bodies and celestial beings expands beyond just hands, in that fingers can be understood as a communication tool or celestial beings while feet imply connection to the Erd Tree or the Greater Will.
Steven Meadows
2023-06-06 13:58:16 +0000 UTCyeah I remember that being the cut off for the second phase as well
Karl Germ
2023-06-06 13:56:14 +0000 UTCAs far as I remember, you can use Mohg’s Shackle up to 2 times during the first faze of the Dynasty Mohg’s fight, but it no longer works once he uses Nihil!
ChipHand_Z
2023-06-06 13:53:53 +0000 UTCI allways saw all the two fingers as their own thing sent by the greater will that only resemble fingers. I think that they were deemed fingers by the people of the lands between. Then the frenzy comes along and decides to take the shape of the 3 missing fingers as some sort of way to make fun of the two or maybe minic them in some way. The 3 fingers resemble actual fingers a lot more than the two (fingerprints, more defined knuckles) so this feels like a totally different being.
Epsilon The Protogen
2023-06-06 06:41:59 +0000 UTCI’ve heard people throw out the idea that Miquella isn’t really as all-accepting as he’s made out to be; we don’t see those who live in death there either, and there aren’t any actual Alburnaics within the Haligtree. Theres definitely a fear the Omen will spread their curse, per the Omen Bairn, which isn’t really substantiated elsewhere but could be a view Miquella shares and fears. There’s also always the possibility that they simply didn’t have access due to the lack of the medallion, at least recently during at least Albus’ lifetime, plus Morgott’s barrier blocking Rold. Add to that the low numbers of Omen survival that aren’t royalty, and the fact that the Royal Omen would have to escape through Leyndell, which is extremely hostile territory for an Omen to stroll through
Lucas West
2023-06-06 01:02:18 +0000 UTCI hate to be an “actually” guy but I’m sure if I’m not, someone else would be. I’m relatively sure Mohg’s Shackle works on Dynasty Mohg (who I fought well after this Mohg in my first play through) but only on the first phase and it can only be used twice in that time. could be something changed in patches or could be my memory is foggy but I distinctly remember using it to get some hits in early in the Miquella arena. but more importantly, the discussion of Blood Flame on the street reminded me of a time years ago I was walking to get dinner with some friends, and a gentleman on a bike slowly rode up behind me and my roommate and said “what do you guys know about chemtrails?” I did what any sensible person would do, which was ignore him and continue walking, but my roommate said “I feel like I don’t know enough about them…” to which this guy bafflingly said “pffft. yeah. keep sleepin’” and rode off. my roommate was saying he really wanted to know what this guy was gonna say about it and he was going to politely feign interest and it backfired in a way that was funnier than whatever other way it could have gone.
Karl Germ
2023-06-06 00:32:34 +0000 UTCI couldn’t help but think of Frampt and Kaathe when I thought about the Two Fingers and Three Fingers on my first playthrough. Of course they’re not the same type of thing, but my mind wandered there for sure.
Mystic Referee
2023-06-05 23:38:55 +0000 UTCI appreciate that even in The Lands Between, wrestling fans are sewer dwelling mutants. I know grabs can be frustrating in this game, but I still love watching myself get bodyslammed by these horny hosses. Does anyone have any idea as to why we don’t see any Omen at the Haligtree? You’d think the arguably most oppressed beings in this world would be interested in Miquella’s mission, or even trying to reach Mohgwyn Palace. It could be the Omen killers keeping any of them from leaving the Plateau, or perhaps they think so little of themselves after generations of abuse that they don’t believe they deserve better.
Mansoor
2023-06-05 21:38:27 +0000 UTCIt’s interesting that sewer Mohg isn’t a golden projection the same way Godfrey is. I wonder if perhaps Mohg is fooling his brother into thinking he’s down in the sewers innocently fooling around with blood and making sure no one reaches the 3 fingers. After all, Gideon’s ignorance seems to imply that the Mohgwyn palace’s location and purpose is not common knowledge. Could that also be why Morgott doesn’t name him as a traitor? Or perhaps it’s because he knows wasting time trying to revive Miquella will amount to nothing and poses no threat to the Order.
Mansoor
2023-06-05 21:28:49 +0000 UTCI’ve also heard people throw out the idea that the Mohg projection is another one of the constructs put together by Morgott, considering the barrier right after False Mohg I can see that not being entirely out of the question. The Margit projection in the Outskirts still persists after killing Morgott, opening the door that he may not need to be alive to leave the projections around. It feels kind of messy and uncertain, I’d prefer if the projections disappear like the one at Stormveil if you kill who made them. As it stands I’m not really sure what to make of the lore of Sewer Mohg, but all the same I like the fight so I can somewhat be glad it’s there
Lucas West
2023-06-05 18:28:14 +0000 UTCI can confirm that Mohg's shackle worked when I used it on him during the fight with the real version, but I don't think it will work when he's in his second phase.
Aaron
2023-06-05 13:39:45 +0000 UTCi'm gonna take what i hope is the most annoying position on the five fingers which is that yes, the two and three fingers do form a hand but it doesn't mean that there was some kind of easily understood schism in prehistory between the forces of order and chaos and instead we as the tarnished simply can't understand the cosmic significance of there being five fingers. it's just a big fucking weird mystery about these weird phalanges that we don't get to solve, possibly because miyazaki came up with the reason for it but forgot to tell anyone or put it in the game.
anonymous
2023-06-05 12:26:02 +0000 UTCThe wiki has odd language about this. “Can be used during *one* of Mohg’s fights.” Does this mean only one? Maybe if you use it here you can’t use it at the palace? Confusing
Eli Leslie
2023-06-05 03:26:23 +0000 UTCPer my most recent palace Mohg fight, there most certainly is a shackle that works during that fight, but it’s possible that it’s a different one than what works when you fight him here
Eli Leslie
2023-06-05 03:24:27 +0000 UTCBeen waiting for this with bated breath. To me, of the most striking Fromsoft areas are their most bleak & sorrowful: New Londo, Old Yharnam & Fishing Hamlet come to mind. "LOOK at this terrible act of the system" places. Places that make me feel physically sick. The Frenzied Flame chasm was absolutely heart-wrenching. Curse the fiends, their children too.... Love Ranni, but the Frenzied Flame ending—both endings—are my favorite. The Three Fingers cutscene is easily in my "best soulsborne cutscenes ever", it's that good. Quiet, unsettling, intimate, bared & raw, desolate- all of these in one. Amazing! Chills every time.
Goldie
2023-06-05 00:21:33 +0000 UTCIf you asked me about "Bloodflame" on the street the first thing that would come to mind is the Red Lantern Corp. The red rings flood their veins with red energy and a side effect of that is that they vomit blood that can ignite into flames on contact. Then you would be running away from my Green Lantern bullshit!
T
2023-06-04 20:33:07 +0000 UTC
