Watch Out for Fireballs! 408: Lisa: The Painful (Premium)
Added 2023-08-24 18:07:46 +0000 UTCThis week we cover Lisa: The Painful. It is both hilarious and also very, very wrong about the nature of what it means to be a broken person. An interesting, albeit sadistic game. How does the game try to break you? Does breaking you translate into a better game? Or is it just interesting? Tune in to find out!
Comments
I'm very glad you guys explained the small issues I had with the game but couldnt put into words. BUZZO THE WARLORD....SCIENTIST! There are numerous straightforward questions that remain unanswered, that I feel detract from the overall emotional impact. Lisa The Pointless is the only fangame worth playing imo, much more a focus on the apocalyptic hijinks and combat. Nitro Rad review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXuxsMO-eFs
Cinnamon Toast Cunt
2023-11-14 00:05:27 +0000 UTCGreen is overrated
Cinnamon Toast Cunt
2023-11-13 23:51:45 +0000 UTCI was thinking about when Gary says that kind of bleak hopelessness only works for him when it's cosmic horror, not humanity. And I just wanted to mention that, unlike Lisa, F&H is extremely Lovecraftian.
DarthEnderX
2023-11-11 19:25:15 +0000 UTCNot Re-Animator. From Beyond.
DarthEnderX
2023-11-11 19:21:04 +0000 UTCWe address that very question!
Duckfeed.tv
2023-11-04 22:55:27 +0000 UTCThe grotesqueness seems to really fit what that game is trying to do. In a very...I wanna say, Re-Animator kind of way.
DarthEnderX
2023-11-04 18:22:14 +0000 UTCI've never played or watched Lisa before. But listening to you guys talk about it I couldn't help thinking "Boy, this really does sound a lot like Fear & Hunger." And not just in terms of content, but mechanically.
DarthEnderX
2023-11-04 18:19:55 +0000 UTCAh gotcha, ty!!! Yeah as much as i enjoy cruelty squad it is awful on the eyes, and even more so for people with color blindness. Thank you again for all you do, loved this episode of Lisa!
Alejandra Robles
2023-08-30 17:58:08 +0000 UTCYou did! I can't play Cruelty Squad because I can't read it because of color blindness. -GB
Duckfeed.tv
2023-08-30 16:33:07 +0000 UTCIt really is lol. Lived there once and would never go back.
JACKAL ALLTRADES
2023-08-30 03:39:20 +0000 UTCHey guys. I just wanted to say as a survivor of SA/abuse, you guys really did approach the issue with like... nuance and gravity. I can't lie, I was initially a bit confused as to why you covered Lisa and Not F&H, but your rationale makes sense (and the F&H censor mod goes a long way towards me being able to actually rec that game to people now--Termina, the sequel, is a vast improvement). I actually feel that way about Neonomicon, funnily enough. I appreciated Gary's fervent refusal of the thesis of the game regarding abuse as well. I felt much the same way when I beat it myself. I busted my ass to break the cycle in game and just... got basically laughed at over it, which had me feeling some kind of way. Just wanted to chime in and say yall did good on this one and its on the level that I've recommended people pick up the patreon just for it. I probably will listen to your Neonomicon episodes, too, when they come out, because I appreciate the care taken when these topics are discussed and the self awareness yall have. Just thought it'd be worth saying given the kind of... nervous tone at the beginning, so to speak.
JACKAL ALLTRADES
2023-08-30 03:38:29 +0000 UTCReally looking forward to this episode! Super Interesting conversation in the beginning here which i really appreciate. I am surprised to see Lisa though when I thought it was Cruelty Squad for this month (unless I missed a schedule change, in which case mb!).
Alejandra Robles
2023-08-29 22:05:11 +0000 UTCI thought they explained it pretty well.
Richard Cochnar
2023-08-29 21:51:01 +0000 UTCI have a friend who really vouches for Fear and Hunger but the rpg maker thing isn’t my style. He says it’s pretty grotesque and not intended to be funny. I suppose my question is why did you guys decide against it?
Stoned Skeleton
2023-08-28 04:12:53 +0000 UTCThank you!
Typhoon Jim
2023-08-27 21:10:11 +0000 UTCGary mentioned bluesky a few times so here’s an invite code to anyone who wants one. bsky-social-en7sc-ockjz
Richard Cochnar
2023-08-27 18:44:44 +0000 UTCPhenomenal episode. I would never play this game but you absolutely nailed it and I enjoyed every minute of it.
Casey Francis Alger
2023-08-27 17:40:26 +0000 UTCOlathe (pronounced Oh-Lay-Tha) is real; a miserable little suburb in Northeast Kansas where I went to high school. It's a fitting name for an apocalyptic landscape full of middle aged lumpy men who think they're all steven seagal
Robert M Fenner
2023-08-27 10:34:42 +0000 UTCGary, I think where we disagree is that I don’t think it’s a critic’s place to decide if a work of art is worth being made. As you mentioned, you critique the work based on how well it executes its idea, not whether the idea itself is amoral. I think in this case, it didn’t seem to work that way for me.
Forced into Femininity
2023-08-26 22:32:31 +0000 UTCYes, a nihilistic view of morality is still a sort of ethics one which we can agree or disagree, that’s a good point if that’s what you’re saying. My issue is that I do think that a responsible critic needs to give more freedom to a work of art to communicate a viewpoint that they disagree with. Art is not philosophy which is why we don’t demand that it follow our own morality, there’s also aesthetic concerns. Perhaps Gary doesn’t think that the viewpoint was communicated successfully aesthetically but I have a real problem with using the language of moral outrage to simply bash a work of art for not conforming to his own life experience. To me, that’s poor criticism though not unsurprising.
Forced into Femininity
2023-08-26 22:31:15 +0000 UTCI'm pretty sure I articulated this in the episode, but to clarify: not everything has to be didactic, but I don't see any artistic value in presenting a cartoonishly bleak world for no reason other than to do it. Games are art, art explores themes not just someone saying "My ex was abused so what if I created a world where after 20 years of there not being women, every person is a silly cartoon or a monster rapist." There's not anything to respect in that. It doesn't matter if that vision is realized, it's not a vision worth realizing. Anyone could just be like "Here's a story about a future where everyone is a monster and it doesn't reflect on anything. It's just a story where bad things happen." and like, so? What have you done there? What we do on the show is critique/analysis which means judging something on more than if it simply expressed *an* idea. What is it trying to do? How well did it do it? Was it worth doing? Lisa fails 2/3 of those. GB
Duckfeed.tv
2023-08-26 22:27:02 +0000 UTCOh, I definitely think there's more to it than consuming, I was speaking extemporaneously. -GB
Duckfeed.tv
2023-08-26 22:23:18 +0000 UTCA little word choice moment that made me think towards the end of the episode. When describing the collaborative relationship between the artist and then person experiencing the art Gary called the people experiencing art “consumers”. Just made me think about how I probably would have used the same word and that made me feel weird. Because I think there is more to experiencing art than “consuming”. Just made me think about how our brains are rotten from capitalism.
Aidan fleming
2023-08-26 19:47:04 +0000 UTCGary did specifically say at some point that he doesn’t think a work needs to present a moral point. The issue it seems to me that gary had is that the game DOES seem to try and make points. It’s that the points it communicates ring hollow and gross to Gary. I think that is different from just acknowledging that it communicates a different worldview.
Aidan fleming
2023-08-26 19:44:08 +0000 UTCI think what I disliked about this episode, which admittedly might be a misunderstanding on my part is that it seems like Gary seems to believe that a work of art needs to present a moral point of view. I think it's wonderful for a work of art to present a completely negative point of view because it's an expression of a creator's worldview. We don't have to agree with what's being presented but we can recognize as being an accurate reflection of a person's state of mind.
Forced into Femininity
2023-08-26 19:09:31 +0000 UTCNow that I know this creator made this game based on accounts of abuse and addiction from their *EX* partner, it's kind of unseemly but I want to play this game now, and approach it as a treatise on how the creator feels about his ex, rather than what he thinks he has to say about abuse and addiction. It's like Steven King basing antagonists on bullies from school: they've hopefully moved on and so should the creator.
Toshio42
2023-08-26 15:22:48 +0000 UTCOne more thing to add with the caveat of spoilers for the game's sequel: A lot of people don't like The Joyful, and I can understand why you chose to not play it for this episode. There is, however, a beautiful segment towards the end of that game where Buddy fights a vision of Brad. He is non-aggressive, choosing to do nothing, heal you, or even hug you. His name changes between phases, from Brad, to Dad, to The Nobody. In his defeat dialogue, he states: "I was completely lost before I found you. You made me feel things I'd never felt before... You showed me what love really is. And that's why when I look into your eyes, it's the scariest feeling in the world." Even as I read those words now, my eyes well up. I think of my own daughter, who at 7 months is like a sapling that can grow into infinite possibilities. I feel that fear deeply, that someone as flawed as me would be responsible for teaching one how to grow and love. It's like giving someone who has never gardened a watering can and telling them it's their job to raise an oak tree. It's easy and unfortunate to see how that can make someone hide, or default to the familiar: generational abuse. One of Gary's chief concerns with this game's plot was that it seemed to convey the message that the cycle of abuse is inescapable. The ending of Joyful offers a small glimmer of hope. As joy mutation makes her slip into a fantasy world, she can either choose to "join" Brad and Rando, whose trauma caused them to create trauma in turn... or "leave them." The former choice ends with a mutated Buddy surrounded by the bodies of those who care about her torn to shreds; she has completely surrendered herself to the pain. The latter choice results in Buddy raising her son in peace. Buddy's father, seemingly forgiven, lives with them. And Rando, her brother of sorts, honored in a grave.
Mansoor
2023-08-26 04:06:26 +0000 UTCI'm so glad you guys covered this game and that you did so extensively. Lisa: The Painful blew me away when I first played it and struck a chord that resonated with me ever since. It truly is amazing to experience this scope of multimedia in a project and realizing it was all pretty much due to one person's hard work. I'm so lazy I refuse to stand when I pee. Very inspiring. You guys mirrored for me a confusion at Buddy's resentment for Brad, a contempt which seems to come from nowhere. I remember being so frustrated with Buddy, how could she possibly not appreciate the lengths to which Brad was going to save her? Can't she see she's putting herself in danger? How doesn't she realize the people around her are the ones hurting her, figuratively and literally? My parents were abusive in different ways. I remember approaching adolescence and learning the trauma I was inheriting could influence my entire life, could be the reason for any time I felt sadness or anger. For as much love a child and parent can hold for one another, an equally intense and unique hatred can be born as well. From their perspective, they sacrificed everything for me. They believed everything they did was for me. I didn't care, because I never asked to be their son. My Brad lost everything for Buddy. His possessions, his friends, his limbs, his sanity, his humanity. I made the the game significantly harder by not taking joy. It didn't matter. Buddy didn't ask or want Brad to do any of that. You're right, keeping Buddy from becoming a breeding slave, even if it is willingly, is the right thing to do. But no teenager wants to be told "you're not old enough to make this decision." No teenager wants to be told "this is for your own good." And no parent wants to be confronted with the fact that no matter how hard they tried, they failed.
Mansoor
2023-08-26 03:35:36 +0000 UTCFirst let me preface this by saying I don't mean to belittle your experience or feelings at all. I just want to posit that it would be difficult to create art if first-hand exposure was required of exploring traumatic or sensitive themes. While I agree with you that fictionalizing someone's abuse, especially without their consent, is gross... we don't know how explicitly the events of Lisa's life are based on her experience. We know Brad is inspired by the developer's own father, so it's difficult to say how much of the game is drawn from first or second hand experience. As a victim of abuse and as a father I can personally say I feel seen by this game, but I absolutely understand the flaws and failures you, Gary, and Kole found in its depiction of those themes.
Mansoor
2023-08-25 22:50:59 +0000 UTCWhile I can't say I personally agree with the majority of the criticisms presented within, I absolutely *do* agree that this is one of the best episodes you two have put out. Good stuff.
Rick Firestone
2023-08-25 21:32:10 +0000 UTCI didn't realize the definitive edition added xp share until you guys mentioned it. Up until that point, I was kind of blown away with how much you guys liked the gameplay. Now it makes sense. This game (pre-definitive edition) turned me into a little conservative, save-scumming, grinding goblin.
Mitchell Biggs
2023-08-25 00:23:33 +0000 UTCThis is the episode that made me sign up for premium because I was feeling such a whiplash between my conceptual attraction to a game I had never heard of and my immediate rejection of the themes. I've played a lot of the games that you review and frankly the idea of a full recap of them didn't do much for me, I listen to this podcast for your sense of things that you offer in the beginning. But, I thought, there is no chance I am gonna play this because of how it handles its story particulars, so I am gonna take you up on playing it so I don't have to. Thanks for going through it. I think you outlined very well the essential hamartia of this game. This game knows what it's about and knows how it's doing it, it's technically competent, it's innovative, and it also has a big fat stake in its heart. I think it took going through the whole thing curtain to curtain in order to show how far this went. I'm one of those people that lives on vibes in RPGs like this, I'm the guy that wants to see the snow village and hear the snow village music, and boy howdy it was sad to hear just how wildly this game swung and what it hit.
Typhoon Jim
2023-08-24 22:17:13 +0000 UTCMissing Griddler. Needs Griddler
The Accident Channel
2023-08-24 20:48:16 +0000 UTCI am SO happy to finally hear someone criticize this game’s depiction of the cycle of abuse. As a survivor of some of the stuff it depicts, I have always been bewildered by how much praise it gets. The fact that the creator isn’t even drawing on firsthand experience and based a lot of it on stories an ex told him is also extremely gross to me…
pigeonb0y
2023-08-24 20:23:36 +0000 UTC
