Call and Response BSC Roundtable: Elphael
Added 2023-09-03 19:22:52 +0000 UTCHey folks! It's time to write in with your responses on Miquella's Haligtree and Elphael in Elden Ring. The relevant areas are EVERYTHING IN THE TREE, plus Consecrated Snowfield. Submit your response as a comment on this post! As always, keep some guidelines in mind.
Keep your responses and stories specific to THE TREE.
Please keep your responses brief. Think two short paragraphs, or around 200 words.
Specificity is preferred over generalities.
We tend to get a lot of responses, so please don't feel bad if we omit your response, or edit it for length.The deadline is the end of the day, Saturday September 10th!
Comments
In the intro to the game, there is a still image of Mohg carrying miquella in his small child form, but when we see him in the cocoon at the palace he’s a big gross bald guy. We can see the pocket of the tree in Malenia’s arena where I presume his body used to be, and the humanoid form of miquella the child expressed in the wood of the haligtree. We learn from the situation with Ranni and Godwyn that when an empyrean dies, the death is separate for the body and the soul. My head-canon so far is that the body of miquella is no longer the vessel of his soul and has therefore begun to age in Mohg’s custody while his soul has been absorbed in some kind of blasphemous Erdtree burial (perhaps not in the Rykard sense, but more like a false idol). He is not (capital D) Dead, but rather split between his body and soul. If Haligtree dies, what are the chances he returns to his old vessel post curse of eternal youth?
Coty Davis
2023-09-15 17:38:09 +0000 UTCThe Great Worm Theodorix fight can be hilarious if you lure a land octopus over to it. Sit back and watch this kaiju fight because the octopus can nearly kill that dragon all on its own.
Ken Yuen
2023-09-14 06:46:58 +0000 UTCHi there! First off, thank you for all of the consistent and thoughtful content. My wife and I welcomed our first child three months ago, and it has been a balm to have this show playing in one ear through the late, long nights (I have now been through the entire show twice B-)). Anyway, my best memory from this region of the game was from the Consecrated Snowfield, where I stumbled flask-less into the canyon of the giant Magma Wyrm, who came roaring out to chase me across the frozen river, only to have the Wyrm get absolutely demolished by the land octopi. One of the best emergent moments of the game. I never beat Malenia (or the Elden Beast, for that matter), but that's never been what these games are about for me.
Simon J
2023-09-12 04:28:25 +0000 UTCDespite being a lore significant area, the Haligtree was let down for me by it's hateful level design and lack of unique enemy types. While I enjoyed seeing the Cleanrot knights out in the wild, I couldn't help but think that if Fromsoft had economized and only put them in the Haligrtree the area would have felt more unique. As it is, the grab bag of Crystalians, Battle Mages, Envoys, minorly reskinned soldiers and Revenants just feels like a poorly designed fan mod where you enter Roundtable Hold and have to fight three Margit's.
Forced into Femininity
2023-09-11 20:16:57 +0000 UTCI will share a short anecdote about my Malenia experience because it's the second most memorable thing in the game for me: When I came on my STR/FTH character using Blasphemous Blade, I was pretty confident that I'd have it in the bag since I'd picked a recommended "Malenia killer spec". Nothing could prepare me for how hilarious it was to see my Mimic tear rag doll her around with Giant's Fireball. That character never saw Water Fowl Dance performed. She was too busy trying to get up off the ground.
Lucy
2023-09-11 02:12:57 +0000 UTCAfter listening to the commentary on the Malenia fight, I have to agree that I wish the healing wasn't such a huge tacked-on issue. It feels really really bad to have fought a good fight only to have most of it undone because of one faulty read or mistimed dodge. It's incredibly satisfying to overcome, but the first time I managed it I was running purely on spite.
Lyall Elspeth
2023-09-11 01:10:22 +0000 UTCElphael is one of the best multiplayer area in all of Souls. The enemy density means co-op makes clearing the area with help very useful and fun. The verticality and branching paths gives overwhelmed invaders quick escape routes. And lots of little secrets to show hosts, using the Souls always excellent gesturing and signaling system. Finally since it is endgame you know everyone has access to anything they want and its a true playground for the entire game.
Randomsome
2023-09-10 19:27:24 +0000 UTCThat is amazing and I'm so glad it was an alternate solution for that puzzle!
Randy Jokela
2023-09-10 14:14:26 +0000 UTCWhile I abhor the "git gud" mentality, the challenging bosses and the feeling that comes from overcoming them are a big part of my love for Souls games. When I finally reached Malenia, I felt ready for the game's ultimate test. What I didn't expect was to come away rethinking my entire relationship to these games. Malenia took me 527 attempts, one re-spec, and 18 hours of playtime to beat. That's close to 10% of my time in Elden Ring and more deaths than all the other bosses combined. She is (to me) the hardest boss From has ever put in a Souls game, by far, and I've done them all. By my 200th death, I'd already learned the boss. I knew how to handle the waterfowl dance and the rest of her moves, but with such a long fight eventually I'd make a mistake and die. I don't want to simply whine about "Malenia too hard". While those 18 hours had plenty of frustration, I did enjoy the practice and gradual improvement. The exhilaration when she finally went down was incredible. But after this, I know I'll be changing up my approach in future games. I'm getting older and my reflexes aren't what they used to be. Maybe it's okay if these uber-challenges aren't for me anymore. I can leave them for the Let-Me-Solo-Hers of the world, and summon them for help next time. In a small way, Malenia is helping me to reshape my motivations and come to terms with my own limitations. Thanks for reading and for all the great discussion on BSC, Randy
Randy Jokela
2023-09-10 14:05:42 +0000 UTCWhy the fuck do Royal Revenants respawn?! I went down to the alleys at the bottom of Ephael. I was aware there were multiple Revenants down there so my plan was stun lock 1 with my Ruins Greatsword +10 and attempt the next. When I died I got back down there and went to the get my runes back. That's when the first one crawls its way out of the ground. It took a few attempts before I realized I could bring my mimic tear buddy into this. So slowly, methodically we cleared the streets of the Haligtree in search of loot. Up top there were two, count them, two Putrid Avatars. The one by itself is easy enough as long as you have fire to do the bonus damage to him. The other one, whom I actually snuck by to get the site of grace behind, is flanked by Haligtree Knights. So I put myself through that until I got them all. Fast forward to the Putrid Tree Spirit to access the end of Millicent's quest line. I had go resort to a random exploit which kept the tree spirit against the environment, limiting its opportunity to hit me. I didn't feel bad since the fight was already stacked against me. After that I was relieved that the fight to assist Millicent was relatively easy. Lastly, we have Melenia. As of writing this I still have not beaten her yet. I find it difficult to count my attempts at bosses but I can say that I've been trying it for 2 days. It was so bad that I went back and beat Malekith and then fought Godfrey/Horah Loux. I had to bring myself to point that it's just her and the end. So let's hope I can get through it in to finish the game before the next call for responses. In conclusion, my views on the Haligtree is that it's an appropriately difficult challenge optional area that is secretly a direct attack to me by From Software solely because need to complete everything possible in the first playthrough. This place reminds me of dlc areas and bosses in previous games and I think much of the Shadow of the Erdtree will reflect similar execution as here. For better or worse this is our best chance to prepare ourselves for what's to come. I can't wait.
Chris Blanchette
2023-09-10 01:57:04 +0000 UTCI'm very much a night owl, which means a lot of my gaming gets done after my wife has gone to bed for the night. Despite our bedroom being directly next to our living room, I've never woken her up while gaming...except once. I'm fighting Malenia for the 15th or 16th time that night, no flasks left, my mimic tear is dead, and both of us are one hit away from death. I manage to avoid one of her combos and, knowing that I wouldn't be able to pull it off again, I decided to run up during her recovery for one last death or glory attack. I managed to hit her, got the classic "final blow" sound, and in a mix of excitement and sheer relief stood up and shouted "oh my god!" loud enough that my wife immediately starts calling from the bedroom in a concerned voice asking what just happened and if im OK. I awkwardly had to explain that, yes I'm fine, I just let my game get the better of me, and that I'm sorry for spooking her. We laugh about it now, but in the moment she was not pleased to have been scared like that over a game.
Erik Brown
2023-09-09 15:31:44 +0000 UTCThe imp statue near the Albinauric Rise shows two fighting imps, so I thought that‘s what the game wanted me to replicate. I did not think of using the fanged imp ashes in my inventory, so I just used a bewitching branch on one of the spirit imps around the tower and let it fight the other one. Also solved the puzzle! The wyrm fight near the icy waterfall was different to the other wyrms, because the land octopi in that area can easily be pulled from the sides into the battle. The wyrm apparently loves a neighborly snack and aggros on them instantly. Since there‘s a lot of land octopi, and they‘re pretty tanky, these unofficial summons-via-kukri made the fight very easy and memorable, because actively using enemies against each other is always fun in these games. I think it‘s a deliberate theme for some later areas, since the dungeon with the multiple Erdtree Burial Watchdogs also encourages you to let them be killed by traps. 🥰
Felix Metzger
2023-09-09 11:43:42 +0000 UTCMy suspicion with her is that she was designed with an expectation you’ll be fighting her with allies. She becomes far more manageable that way and even fun, especially with a group of your buddies cursing and hollering with you on voice chat as you suffer together ‘neath the Blade of Miquella. :)
Erik Heard
2023-09-08 18:31:52 +0000 UTCHmmm you might be right. If that’s the case, her regenerating poise and health at the same time is a bit much.
Chase
2023-09-08 00:59:33 +0000 UTCElphael was the only area I didn't like on my first playthrough. I was trying to do as completionist of a run as possible, and so Elphael was the last thing I did before heading to Farum Azula and the endgame boss-gauntlet. As you all referenced, the Oracles in the Haligtree were rather bothersome, and so when I finally got to Elphael proper and the initial grand vista, my first thought was not exactly positive. At that point, I basically just said, "Jesus Christ, there's more?" I rushed through and didn't really take time to clear many of the encounters, particularly the Revenants in the alley or the cathedral steps bunker. I really struggled with the Putrid Avatar below, but found Malenia comically easy. At the risk of humblebragging, I actually beat her on my second try (though I did kind of cheese her with Tiche.) However, when I finally went to Farum Azula and finally reached the Ashen Capital, I strangely found those areas to be both easier and more interesting to explore than Elphael. In retrospect, it felt kind of tunnel-visioned in a way that the rest of the game's areas didn't for me, in addition to the almost spiteful difficulty of some of that zone's encounters.
Frank Kerr
2023-09-07 23:31:20 +0000 UTCI think her stagger bar regenerates fast, and possible regenerates along with her health as she hits you.
Erik Heard
2023-09-07 21:39:46 +0000 UTCOn my recent playthrough of the Haligtree I, too, was struck by how much of a bad guy I seemed to be. Hey nice sanctuary y'all have here, it'd be a shame if I killed everyone for some smithing stones! I did think of a couple of good reasons you might want to head that way: 1. You became invested in Millicent's story and want to aid in her quest 2. This one I like more. Let's say you had too much to drink one night and took off all your clothes and got hugged by the 3 hairy wigglers. Sounded like a good idea at the time, but you really don't want to bring absolute chaos and destruction on your homeland. The Note: Miquella's Needle in Cathedral of the Forsaken could lead you investigating the Haligtree to wash off the flaming finger taint. Really, though I just went in there to fuck shit up cause I play video games.
Bradley James Ward
2023-09-07 11:18:47 +0000 UTCThe only textual reasons for going to Elphael and fighting Malenia are doing it to trade informaiton with Gideon and getting Malenia's rune in order to accumulate power and fix the Elden Ring as much as possible.
Mateusz Swietoslawski
2023-09-07 06:38:50 +0000 UTCIt’s a bit crazy to think that we’re finally here at the Haligtree, thanks for sticking with it for all these weeks. That, of course, brings us to Malenia, and her difficulty. I’m the type of person who mostly adores the tough bosses you’ve previously covered in other games, like Gael or Isshin, but Malenia crosses over into “too difficult” territory for me personally. I enjoy her fight, but (without getting too technical), just feel like her difficulty was amped up at the expense of being a more enjoyable fight. It makes me slightly concerned for the difficulty of the DLC bosses. Frequently FromSoft ramps up the challenge, but Malenia already feels over-tuned as is. I’m optimistic that they won’t try and one-up her fight with an even harder boss, mainly because of the mixed feedback on her fight. I absolutely can’t wait to find out if that’s the case, please FromSoft grant us DLC
Lucas West
2023-09-06 20:42:14 +0000 UTCIt’s interesting that in one episode you mention that we tarnished show up in Elphael (dumb name) to either fight or fight for Melania. Given the similarities in questline structure to Ranni and Rykard’s quests and Melania’s relative present neutrality, I was convinced Milicent served as a hook for another questline/ending like Blaithe does for Ranni. I could see a questline where your aiding of Millicent, hunting for unalloyed needles and such would build up to helping Melania break the hold that the gods of rot had over her and a large portion of the lands between or even the outer gods all together. I feel like there’s more narrative weight for a Melania alliance and subsequent ending than the pee pee poo poo edge lord. I was bummed that we couldn’t become the Blade of Melania the same way we could become the consort eternal for Ranni. Much as I love all of the lore of Elphael (dumb name) and Melania, it feels ridiculous to burst into Rot Wine Mom’s living room, kick her dog, knock over her bowl of Cheetos and then leave just for the sake of “because video games”. I am always willing to suspend my disbelief or reasoning if it means getting an engaging story, but when the story is “ find and murder a grieving disabled person” it feels pretty lazy.
Dani Murano-Kinney
2023-09-05 01:42:08 +0000 UTCI know there’s been plenty of discourse about Melania’s regen factor and waterfowl dance, but I really hate how selectively immune to stagger she is. There is no consistency with her tanking your attacks or you interrupting hers. Even with colossal weapons, you can squarely hit her in the face, and she can hover around you like you slapped her with a foam finger. Sometimes it’ll stagger her, but only sometimes. The inconsistency drives me crazy. Try fighting her alone, and the issue gets even worse. I think I could forgive the waterfowl dance and regen if this wasn’t a problem as well. Contrast Melania with Lady Maria. She was another challenging, fast paced swordsman but could be staggered from almost any attack, other than a few of her powerful blood slashes. It felt like her attacks and poise followed more consistent rules that you could memorize and learn from.
Chase
2023-09-04 22:57:36 +0000 UTCThe story of Melania for me, as a boss fight, is that she is brilliant and incredible in almost every way, except for one pesky mechanic that almost completely ruins the fight. Her design, her animation, her transformation--all great stuff. Waterfowl dance, the bloom attack, the butterfly clones--these elements all work for me as a super-difficult-but-also-optional fight. But the health stealing. On every hit, including blocked attacks. It's difficult in a way that just doesn't feel fair or interesting. It's not like you need to watch out for this one animation that means she's about to suck you're life out. Nope, it's every hit, including the ones that bonk your shield. For me, this one mechanic stacks the cards so heavily against the player that the fight stops being a fun one-on-one duel and becomes nearly impossible, unless I summon. But it doesn't totally ruin the fight for me. I had a lot of fun summoning help. The healing mechanic meant that I had to pay close attention to my comrade's rhythms and time my attacks with them, so we could keep her stun-locked and prevent her from getting any attacks off. But I just wish this could have been achieved without making "solo-ing" her virtually impossible for most of us.
Jeff Moscaritolo
2023-09-04 20:54:43 +0000 UTCMy suspicion is that the three Empyrians, Miquella, Malenia, and Ranni were allied against the greater will. It provides a possible motivation behind the invasion of Caelid (kill Radahn, allowing access to Nokron). When that failed, Ranni was without allies and had to make alternative plans.
Erik Heard
2023-09-04 17:28:11 +0000 UTCI like hard boss fights, I have solo’d every boss in the entire series. I don’t say this to brag but more as context as I always prefer to fight bosses solo. Orstein & Smough is great, Fume Knight is excellent, Orphan of Kos I love & Isshin the sword saint probably gave me my best Soulsborne moment after finally defeating him after 2 solid days. But never did I think a boss went too far with difficulty… until Malenia! Look I have beaten her solo a few times now but this was after a huge amount of attempts and several respecs… I think they needed to take out just 1 of the mechanics and it will of made the fight way more enjoyable. Mechanic 1 - the fact every time she hits you she heals herself is cruel. Mechanic 2 - waterfowl dance is a death sentence, you may get lucky and survive but for a move to kill your 95% is rough. I honestly think if they removed just 1 of the mechanics I mentioned the fight would be far better for it. I do actually enjoy the fight a lot but for me Fromsoft finally took a boss too far. Also big weapons that can stagger and knock her over are definitely her weakness & makes the fight a lot easier. Still loving the show after all the years, keep up the great work! - Mitch
Mitchell Turner
2023-09-04 08:02:35 +0000 UTCThe Halig tree is possibly my favorite area of the game, second to liurnia maybe. I deeply associate this area with Miquela for obvious reasons. For me it’s a tragedy we don’t learn more about this charismatic little twink and their duality as St. Trina particularly because it leaves just enough room for recalcitrant fans with a binary ideas of gender to imply they are not ther same figure despite both canon and cut content strongly signifying the two entities are one in the same. if Miquela were confirmed to be st. Trina, this may be the first character in a fromsoft game who ostensibly wasn’t cis, with a gender modality that could be read as trans, non binary, and/or gender fluid. Given that trans folks make up a larger section of fromsoft fans it’s past due that we can see ourselves represented. I also have a critique of that representation if we got it confirmed. A dangerous myth about trans people that anti trans extremists put out into the world is to associate gender variance of any kind with duplicity, deception, manipulation, and malevolent deceit. Given how much of the text about miquella is devoted to building an image of them up as a highly charismatic and manipulative figure, this would play into that dangerous media trope as gender variant people as deceptive and malevolent. Sort of a damned if we do and damned if we don’t scenario, with many red flags either way.
Dani Murano-Kinney
2023-09-04 03:01:52 +0000 UTCUnsure if the comments on the past call & response post count, but just in case, here's a copy and paste. A humble request to any artists out there: Miquella engaging Malenia in a fairly one-sided philosophical conversation while careening downhill in a wagon, Calvin & Hobbes style. I will pay anything. In regards to Millicent: There's a method of grafting specific to buds, where a choice bud is cut away and grafted onto rootstock. It seems apt that Gowry might want to graft Millicent onto the most available sacred tree in order to secure the full potential of her blooming (blegh), even though the Haligtree is dying, which might indicate desperation, but it's also rotting, which might make it more sacred to the rot faith. I liked Millicent; she was stubborn and proud. Entering the Haligtree, with the horns of the oracles, is one of the most stunning moments in the game. It's interesting that they might be heralding Malenia. Scarlet earth spreads into Limgrave beyond Caelid's burning wall; when the world itself thinks it's inevitable, there's no need for a Tarnished to usher in an age of rot.
Goldie
2023-09-04 01:58:53 +0000 UTCComing from the left field with … you guessed it, a Berserk reference! A lot of Miquella’s physical and personal descriptions are close to how Griffith is described during his band of the hawk days. Described as male but also described as non-binary coded, looking impossibly young, compelling affection… Of course, the stories of Miquella and Malenia and their afflictions are on a different tangent to Griffith’s, but it’s fascinating how Miquella’s dreams manifest similar to Griffith’s “Kingdom”: The Haligtree is similar to Falconia, a kingdom for the true bringer of salvation, a haven for all the monsters and beings cast aside by the “divine” and civilization. It’s not a one-to-one story parallel, maybe a “borrowing of themes and vibes”. We know there is another half to Griffith’s story, in how he evolves into Femto, having realized his dream by bringing absolute doom and tragedy to his loved ones, while Miquella has no such direct sinister motives described. But by the way! Miquella is in a damn cocoon? Maybe could digivolve into Femto? Food for thought. Anyway, we don’t know if From wants to land on anything villainous in the DLC with Miquella, and maybe it is more interesting if they’re a true force for good doing something meaningful, subverting the Griffith parallels. Either way; as an item description says: beware “the most fearsome Empyrean of all”!
Mystic Referee
2023-09-04 00:52:00 +0000 UTCI really liked Malenia as a boss fight. Im not a Let Me Solo Her level player, but I never summon players or NPCs, I just go in with a big sword and a mimic tear and have fun. I think I had one factor which helped me enjoy the battle more than most players, though; I worked my way to Placidusax, Malenia and the final boss all at once, meaning that just when the game became too hard for a lot of players, I could continue to enjoy the Elden Ring feeling of "too hard? Do something else!" Bashing my head against three different bosses was an entirely different feeling to endlessly bashing my head against one.
Luke Summerhayes, visionary host of the excellent Game Game Show podcast
2023-09-03 23:22:14 +0000 UTCYeah, great point about it being a better iteration of the ringed city
Duckfeed.tv
2023-09-03 20:29:48 +0000 UTCElphael was what I wanted from The Ringed City DLC for Dark Souls 3. It felt like a difficulty climax that was earned more than spiteful. Enemies were beefy but spaced out enough that each encounter felt immense but doable with enough planning while the level pathing had enough choices in it that some were all together skippable if you know where you’re going. I remember my jaw dropped when I saw that there was an entire new city to explore even that late in the game and stumbling onto Revenant HateFuck Alley made me laugh at just how absurd and mean of a joke it felt like.
Stephen Veilleux
2023-09-03 19:58:04 +0000 UTC
