Bonfireside Chat 299: Across the Great Ellac Bridge (Part 2)
Added 2024-09-15 20:09:21 +0000 UTCBefore we attack Castle Ensis, there’s more ground we need to cover on the far side of the Great Ellac Bridge. This week’s episode introduces a brand new kind of mini dungeon, the Ruined Forge, full of big goofy golems with obvious weak points on their butts. We also meet sleepy, insecure Thiollier before ascending the Suppressing Tower and speculating about what exactly is going on with that thing.
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So you find Misbegotten in the DLC specifically around these magma caves. Between that, the connection to Bayle via magma and dragon smithing stones I’m pretty sure the lore connection has something to do with dragon evolution. Like the stone dragons. To a dragon like Bayle. To misbegotten. Maybe even a connection to the Morne sword that’s quite forgettable but specifically named as special in the lore of the main game. Could even be a crucible thing. Some sort of life evolution where once was dragons and crucible becomes beastly dudes crucible. The misbegotten are the black sheep of the beast men. Which eventually just turns into the Erdtree and people people
Jessie joy
2025-07-22 16:21:40 +0000 UTCSo I may have missed some lore note in an item description, but I don’t recall Godwyn ever explicitly being labeled the first born. I think it was somewhat implied in the base game, but I don’t know that it was ever outright stated as fact (though it’s possible I just missed it). But with the info we have now, it definitely seems likely that Messmer (and Melina) pre-date the children of the golden lineage. Regarding the note on top of the Suppressing Tower, keep in mind that there are certain types of creatures and/or aspects of creatures that are considered outside of the Erdtree’s Grace, and by extension will not be absorbed back into the Erdtree or reborn upon their death like most of the creatures in The Land’s Between are. Specifically Omen, Misbegotten, and other creatures touched by or exhibiting aspects of the Crucible. This could be why Miquella needed to share blood with Mohg, a creature with horns and therefore outside of Grace who would not be reabsorbed into the Erdtree, in order to enter the Shadow Realm in the first place. I also think this link shines a light on what the Supressing Tower note means by “supressing death”. I believe it is referring to the versions of Death that washes up to the Shadow Realm. Death that falls outside of the Erdtree’s purview. The death of things and beings that cannot be reabsorbed into the Erdtree wash up to the Shadow realm, and have to be dealt with in another way, such as burning, either by Mesmer or the Death Birds ghost flame, or by the Hornsent mixing the dead into their Crucible Jars, attempting to blend them into a new being. But again, this is just my 2 cents. The Tower note does mention that it is the center of The Land’s Between, so I think assuming the part about Death refers to the entire Lands Between is a very valid interpretation as well. Either way, From definitely gave us some interesting stuff to chew on with that note.
ChipHand_Z
2024-09-20 16:06:01 +0000 UTCHey guys, first time writing in and just wanted to leave some general feedback, nothing episode-specific here. I only started listening to BSC this year and I'm very glad I found you, albeit so many years later! It's been an especially difficult year for me since I lost my dog suddenly and it's been nice to have your show while I commute. I played Shadow of the Erdtree right as it came out, so this is the first time I'm listening to the show episodes in real time. During a recent episode, Kole did an etymological/associational riff on "surrogacy." I just want to say I really enjoyed that kind of analysis. I think drilling into words and concepts like that for its history and patterns is a really fruitful and creative way to engage media. A lot of lorecraft seems to be so chained to a kind of legal heuristic, wherein one collects 'evidence' to prove or disprove some theory. I like a conceptual approach that is less invested in frameworks of proof and can instead focus on other aesthetic concerns. So thank you for that, Kole. Second, in another recent episode your both graciously acknowledged the importance of the PVP community to FromSoft games-discourse and longevity, even though it is not a serious area of interest for either of you. I wondered if you have any plans for bringing on another PVP guest like you did in some previous seasons? Shamelessly, I will plug a streamer/youtuber called Saint Riot. He is hilarious, weird, and seems like he would fit the kind of culture you guys promote in your show (respect for differences etc.). Anyways, thanks again for all your work and I wish good health to you guys, your other listeners, and to everyone's nonhuman-animal companions.
Rudi
2024-09-18 09:20:41 +0000 UTCTwo thoughts from your discussion around the suppressing tower: 1) I noticed that the text seems to be pointing at The Fissure. Not sure what that means, but I would say it's the area with the "most" death. 2) my interpretation with Melina and Messmer was that they are the youngest of Marika's children and Messmer was banished to the shadow realm because of his eye. That probably causes other timeline problems, but it made the most sense to me as I was playing.
Steven E Southall
2024-09-18 00:09:15 +0000 UTCI do think the Igon love is a bit overblown by the community, but I can't deny that he's one of the highlights of the DLC. But give me Sieglinde and Ansbach vocal performances any day.
Oliver Tripp
2024-09-17 02:28:05 +0000 UTCDitto to this
Micah Tillman
2024-09-16 22:23:12 +0000 UTCSpear of the Impaler acts as a Smithscript Weapon and even benefits from the Smithscript Talisman, so it’s possible these are tied to his forces and Marika’s old conquests? Maybe because his spear uses it, Messmer developed the magic used on the weapons. His men are drenched in stones, so the golems could be “his”? Maybe the fire golem giants have some shared origin with the smithing golems?
JackelZXA
2024-09-16 21:50:24 +0000 UTCThe weapon art on the anvil hammer carried me my first time through the DLC. Does hefty poise damage AND sets things on fire with a surprisingly-extensive hitbox that lingers (enemies often run into it even if you miss with your initial swing)
Micah Tillman
2024-09-16 19:38:26 +0000 UTCI associated the forges with the Fire Giants. Not them specifically but their references to smithing and how at one point the act of smithing was considered a religious ritual. The golems being facsimiles of the giants and their priests in the worship of the act of creation by fire. The whole “The anvil is the shape of something we already worshiped” feels like a fantasy story’s version of “the chicken or the egg” to me. Oddly enough, Smithscript gives me the same vibes as the holy script weapons of the two fingers. One is the translation of the natural waves and puckering of cooling magma and the other is the physical interpretations of the literal word of god. Also the Smithscript hammer and shield are a lot of fun to use.
Fang
2024-09-16 14:18:28 +0000 UTCMy personal theory with Messmer and Melina being first born while Godwyn is stated as first born is they are not acknowledged by Marika, almost as if they are “bastards” in connection with GRRM. Both are seemingly cursed the same way that Melina and Miquella were, those two likely being that way in connection with their parentage. Also, Base being used in Base Serpent instantly feels like a connection to Baseborn, another common GRRM theme. Finally, this would also round off some questions about why Hornsent Grandam called Marika a wanton strumpet, if Marika gave birth to children outside of marriage.
Jayveethree
2024-09-16 13:33:05 +0000 UTCIe: smith script stuff, there’s a fantasy novel series I like a lot and in the hundreds of hours I’ve put into ER I enjoy doing RP builds from them (the armor sets in ER are great for it). Smith script weapons let me live out the fantasy of being an assassin with a brace of throwing knives or a hunter with a collection of throwing spears, while not making me fiddle with my inventory
Eli Leslie
2024-09-16 06:48:42 +0000 UTCAs Gary points out, in the Lands Between, you can’t die unless you’re killed or buried in the right way. The inability to die in the wake of the Shattering has resulted in most survivors going hollow. This is just speculation, but I get the feeling that what’s special about the Tarnished is that they can’t go hollow. Just as Gary says, Thiollier has hit on an entirely reasonable idea, which is that the curse of being an undying Tarnished can be alleviated by sleeping. Thiollier obviously isn’t as weak as he claims to be; he’s just tired of being forced to fight forever. And damn if that isn’t a welcome touch of psychological realism in a story full of epic melodrama (affectionate).
Kathryn
2024-09-15 23:34:17 +0000 UTCI will be friends with Thiollier! I think both he and Sorcerer Thops are interesting characters in what they represent. Namely, in an eldritch world of insane demigods and murderous heroes and nightmare horrorterrors, what if someone were normal?
Kathryn
2024-09-15 23:31:06 +0000 UTCRe: the contradiction between Godwyn being described as Marika's firstborn and Messmer being implied to be her first: I think the Golden Order has a habit of titling things the "first" of whatever when it isn't actually the first. For example there's Godfrey being titled the "First Elden Lord", when actually Placidusax was Elden Lord before Marika ever came about. I read Godfrey's title as state propaganda, erasing Placidusax's age in order to position Marika as "the Eternal" not just in the "will never die" sense but also in the "has always been your god" sense. I also think there's a similar explanation for Godwyn being called both "Marika's firstborn" and "the first of the demigods to die" despite Messmer's existence and the Godskin hunt happening long ago respectively -- in both cases he wasn't actually "the first", but acknowledging the other thing would have been bad for the state narrative. I don't think Messmer had actually been stricken from the historical record when Godwyn was titled "the first", because the Lands of Shadow seem to have been sealed away after Godwyn's death, but I do think that Godwyn was the politically advantageous one to stick up front as the royal firstborn since he was a straightforward child of Godfrey instead of (presumably) a selfcest baby from before Marika was even a god.
Kenny
2024-09-15 22:26:49 +0000 UTCI think the Suppressing Pillar is definitely linked to the Divine Towers; they resemble each other architecturally, & the Divine Towers form a hexagon that the Suppressing Pillar could sit neatly at the center of. I think the Divine Towers served a function similar to the pillar/were part of a system centered around it; I don't think they were built for specific demigods/great runes (I don't think that makes sense timeline-wise), I think that when we kill a shardbearer some of their power "washes up" at the relevant Divine Tower, to be again gathered into the Great Rune. The only Great Rune we don't have to activate happens to be the one belonging to the only shardbearer we don't kill. And in two of the abandoned Divine Towers, the Godskin have set up shop, and the Godskin are said to have served Destined Death (apostle set description).
corvidnoah
2024-09-15 22:16:29 +0000 UTCFROM HELL'S HEART I STAB AT THEE!! There's a lot of soulsborne dialogue options that are so frank they're funny. One is when you can tell Jerren "I'm not the festive type", but my personal favorite is in the Hunter's Nightmare where you can tell Simon either "Nightmares fascinate me" or "I've no interest". Something about that makes me flat out guffaw like what else can you say I guess. In regards to the suppressing tower, I like it as well as simply esoteric. There's not a lot better than mysterious ancient towers, and I really enjoy the feeling it evokes, especially when I read that message for the first time. Something that I realized once when looking at how the Realm of Shadow aligns with the Lands Between is how Belurat was next to Liurnia, and it got me thinking a bit about Jarburg is just hanging out on the cliffside of the Liurnian coast. Perhaps a remnant missed or an old practice picked up, or both.
Goldie
2024-09-15 21:36:41 +0000 UTCI love my boy Ahab—I mean Igon.
Richard Cochnar
2024-09-15 20:46:34 +0000 UTC
