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The Nature of Predators 2-80

Memory Transcription Subject: Elias Meier, Former UN Secretary-General

Date [standardized human time]: February 10, 2161

With the pressure off of my shoulders, tied only to an advisory capacity for Secretary-General Osmani, I found myself living in 2136 in my head. The fate of the SC no longer rode on my actions, so I could afford to contemplate a past which felt more real than any of this. I remembered my first time boarding a spaceship for an alien world, the raw power of the engines shaking the seats as we achieved lift-off from Earth. My life had been so consumed by worldly problems and making things better on that small blue sphere of ours. To see it below had been an experience like no other. How the extermination fleet could’ve looked down on it and not been moved by its beauty, thinking it just an ugly vessel that needed cleansing. 

Those memories were not mine. They were implanted into my memory banks to make it seem real, but I had not experienced them. We were not the same consciousness, and while I carried Meier’s traits and proclivities, that was the truth of it. How was it fair that I recalled what it was to weep, to tear into a juicy burger, and inhale the scent of the vanilla candles I kept on my desk, yet could never have that experience? I imagined what the Federation would’ve thought of that last item, laughing to myself. A primitive illumination device, and why aromatic herbs would appeal to a predator’s blood-drawn nose—we confused them so much.

I almost feel more at home dealing with the Shield and the Federation remnants, since I’d grown used to that being how aliens are. I was the scariest of them all in their heads, as the human leader; they thought me a ferocious monster, foaming at the mouth. Not me. I’ve stolen Elias’ memory and identity, really, and I’ve figured that out with his cognition.

When the UNS Odyssey tested its FTL engines, Elias had been proud of what humanity might accomplish, though this all wasn’t even a dream in his subconscious. Mind you, he was never a big space aficionado, but I knew that he thought it would be nice to have a backup plan…in case we should destroy our temperate Earth. The question was, what did I think of the mission looking back? Had it been worth holding onto our optimism, when it meant enduring the wars and losses that assailed us over these past two decades? I wanted to believe that this was all worth it for the good the SC could do, but I would not exist if Noah and Sara hadn’t found the Venlil. Elias would’ve lived a fuller, calmer life without all of those tumultuous feelings he endured in his final days, in the time and body that his mind belonged in.

I felt sorry for the poor guy. He had a great deal of compassion for humanity, and died not knowing if his species would survive. In those last moments, he had thought it all worth it. I had the unique perspective of my lifespan to challenge that viewpoint. While I’d been enamored by the idea of the Sapient Coalition when I first learned of humanity’s status, I’d had to chew them all out over their injustices and lingering biases. With the technology that molded me, the future could be more stagnant than ever; Osmani’s generation might be the last one that got the torch handed to him. People would chase the dream of immortality, not realizing that the reality was being little more than a copy who foolishly believed itself to be the original.

There was a knock on the door to my quarters, and I put on a smile as Osmani poked his head in. “Elias, excellent work sealing the Krev treaty. I’m glad we put those drones to better use, though we’ll have to keep a close eye on them.”

“You really think General Radai won’t shift the targets as we agreed upon? This is the only way his government gets a peace that doesn’t involve immediate and total disarmament,” I remarked.

“Sure, the Krev Consortium pivoted away from fighting humanity and its circle, and I don’t find them disingenuous in that regard. There are shady elements within their leadership, even at a cursory glance. I expect Radai to keep his word, but you can never be certain of anyone’s intent. Trust but verify.”

“Better safe than sorry. I suppose you want me to join the assembly as our ships arrive at Grenelka?”

“Your absence is a little conspicuous, but I can craft an excuse if you don’t want to join us. You earned a rest. It’s a shame ‘food poisoning’ can’t be used for you. I would like you to be there when General Jones visits my office after the battle, and we inform her that she’s been removed from her position.”

“The old bat hasn’t seen it coming? Ha, I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation. Her defense for herself will be something to hear.”

“It’s painfully obvious that you’re not Jones’ biggest fan. People like her are a necessary evil, but they shouldn’t exceed their station…or take gambles that can blow up in all of our faces.”

I wondered what Virnt thought now, reading all of this. The Tilfish scientist visited for an occasional check-in, but I was increasingly disgruntled by the fact that he could read my every waking thought at will. This life should be mine to live, if I was to be considered a person at all; after this many months, it couldn’t be necessary to check my sanity. As if it wasn’t unfair enough what Terra Technologies did to me. That kind of monitoring—the Sapient Coalition and the United Nations should make laws against it, assuming this technology was moving forward. Privacy being dead was the exact shady element Osmani referenced in the Consortium. 

I remember the horrifying possibilities Gress had spouted out, when he insisted that the Krev were making clandestine usage of mind uploading. There was no proof of that, but if they have more advanced brain scanners than us, creating persons like me should be within their grasp too. If they haven’t already, they will.

“Yes, we have to uphold a higher standard to the Sapient Coalition. There are too many eyes on us.” I stared at the skin on my hands, remembering how I’d wanted to see the wires underneath after my reanimation. The thought panicked me less now, though I still wondered who the fuck I was. Whatever my friends had told me, I rejected being called Elias. “Sir, if I might ask you about a matter of personal concern?”

Osmani held out his hands in a sweeping gesture. “Go on.”

“What are your thoughts on my…situation?”

The Secretary-General narrowed his eyebrows, a puzzled glint in his eyes, as he paused for several seconds. “Being a synthetic being? What of it? I told you I wanted you to help me write in safety guidelines, and that the implications worried me. I respect your wisdom and what you did during a trying time in Earth’s history.”

“That’s the thing. I did none of that. I only remember doing it, but everyone around me insists that I’m the same Elias. Perhaps because they want me to be.”

“I…think you still carry all of Elias’ wisdom, but that you’ve been molded like a perfect replica. Every likeness has been copied, but you are not the original. You persist in the world in Meier’s image, and carry on his hopes and dreams, but your experiences are unique. They diverged from that starting template.”

“That sounds like a fair assessment,” I mumbled. “My consciousness tells me I’m him, but I’m really not. Maybe I owed Elias that service at one point, but it’s time I find my own hopes and dreams. I shouldn’t ruin his memory by being an impostor. You all look at him as a hero, though I know he wasn’t…his guilt and his regrets. Those were his private thoughts, no one else’s.”

Osmani’s eyes grew troubled. “You’re distancing yourself from that life, as if you want his memories out of your head. I’m not sure they could do that. What are you saying?”

“I still want to help you, Mr. Secretary-General; I do care. I know I’d have no personality without him, and…he’s a good man to emulate. What I want is to make my own life, without being tied to that perfect ideal and that past. I’m ready to let go of the idea that there’s any part of me that’s truly Elias.”

“No one has the right to govern your identity but you. You have to live in your own body, not the others. We are who we believe ourselves to be in our souls, not what anyone else tells us we are. If it was the latter, humanity is just a bunch of rabid predators, right?”

I laughed. “Never tell them about rabies. ‘The Hunger’ was real all along! They hear of humans frothing at the mouth and biting people from a disease, and it’s over.”

“An entirely preventable disease, but yes. At any rate, I must get going. You’re welcome to join us out by the UN’s table, though regardless of your attendance there, I imagine I’ll see you in my office afterward. Taking the Yulpa out would be a good start for dismantling the Fed remnants, so let’s hope we’ll be riding the high of that victory then.”

“I want to see us swooping in to save the Arxur this time; it’ll be curious to have the tables turned on history’s usual script. I’ll follow you out there, sir.”

“Call me Hamza, at least in private. No need for formalities.”

I dipped my head in acknowledgment and followed the new Terran leader through the winding hallways of the station. It was my understanding that we’d allowed the Tellish and Krev liaisons to go on a little escapade to Earth, both for their own benefit and so that they wouldn’t have direct eyes on our military operations. While we were all working together against the Remnants, there wasn’t much trust in the Consortium. The last thing we needed was a repeat of Aafa, with short-sighted fools attacking the Arxur to continue waging their war. At the very least, the Yulpa were much less formidable foes than the KC; they still used manned ships.

As much as I wish we could help the Jaslips more, the last thing we need is to be in a two-front war. We need to dismantle the Federation’s successor before we decide whether the KC needs a drastic, forceable overhaul. The Sapient Coalition can’t throw up our hands and turn a blind eye again, long-term, if they’re as bad as Gress believes.

I scanned the crowd, gauging how the SC representatives felt about our assault on Grenelka; from the few expressions I could see, the overwhelming sentiment was that this was long overdue, especially given how off the rails the Yulpa were. I shuddered to think of them sacrificing humans to their gods. Whatever I felt about Elias, humanity was still my species. I shared all of their thoughts, and every last section of their mind; their perception of the world and mental pathways operated on the same plane as my own. I remembered enough of what it was to be like them, with needs, pain, and exhaustion, that it didn’t feel like a foreign concept.

My binocular eyes swept upward to the Bissem balcony, and a smile crossed my face as I saw none other than Doctor Tassi back among her people’s delegation. It was soul-affirming to see the first contact scientist returning to our cause, not giving up on our organization. We were going to shake things up around here for our own purposes. I decided that I should venture up to share the good news; Tassi needed to know that I’d kept my promises. I’d gotten the vote for the end of the piscivores’ trial period on the docket, along with the referendum on lifting Talsk and Aafa’s quarantine. In addition, Osmani had the authority to give Jones a pink slip, which I was sure the scientist would be pleased to hear.

“Excuse me, Hamza. There’s someone I have to say hello to, before I join you,” I remarked, shuffling off toward the Bissems’ seating area.

As human ships were on the cusp of breaking in to deal with the troublesome Yulpa, and show the Arxur some support at long last, I turned to show my support to another ally that I thought had deserved better. The last thing I’d wanted was to see Dr. Tassi go the way of Kuemper, becoming jaded and giving up on this organization. This was the reminder of why it was worth maintaining my optimism, even with the gargantuan task of fixing the SC’s ills. This wasn’t just the time for me to step away from Elias Meier’s legacy, but for the Sapient Coalition to rewrite its own history and effects.

A/N - 80! Meier has reached the determination that he is not the real Elias, and seeks a more neutral opinion without any personal stake in it from Osmani. We learn that the confrontation with Jones is imminent, and also that the KC and SC have signed a peace treaty…there’s bigger fish to fry with the Remnants, despite a few suspicious elements in the Consortium. The humans are planning to come to the Arxur’s aid to deal with the Yulpa, though Meier plans a detour to see Tassi before the battle kicks off?

What do you think about our narrator’s desire to be an independent person from Elias, and free of his legacy? Will human aid at Grenelka change Kaisal’s opinion on the UN? How do you expect the Fed remnants to hold up…and what reasons do you imagine Jones will give to Osmani?

As always, thank you for reading and supporting! Tassi POV next!

Comments

@Elias: So, first of all, it feels a bit odd discussing this after several new chapters revealed new information. With the massive KC supplied Ghost Farsul fleet in orbit around Grenelka, any ground invasion is out of the question. Additionally, it seems from the last chapter SP won't even give us a brief conclusion to the Grenelka saga, as Taylor from his POV chooses to completely ignore it. Honestly, I feel kind of cheated, but I guess this means we can carry on this discussion as if those new chapters didn't happen. Now let me try and clear up your confusion: The logistics of saving the innocent Yulpa are exactly what separates them being legitimate collateral damage and unnecessary civilian casualties! If you can't reasonably save the enemy civilians, than they die. That is how wars work, and as far as I am concerned, that is moral. Again - you don't sacrifice your people to save the enemy, and enemy civilians are still enemy. You don't fight a countrie's army, you fight a country. That goes ten fold when you are talking planetary scale. And here is an important point: a soldier does not surrender their autonomy to their CO. Not in the modern military. That is not how that works. Yes, you have to follow orders, sometimes even orders that may lead to your death, but you don't follow every order like a robot. That is why "I was just following orders" didn't fly at Nuremberg. There is such a thing as illegal order, which soldiers are absolutely obligated not to follow. Now I am not saying we can't choose a moral high ground, I just don't think getting too many good people killed trying to save a civilization that chose the path of death is moral, let alone a moral high ground. I don't know how many Yulpa are in PD facilities, or how many of them aren't strongly adherent to their religion. As far as I know, most Christians on Earth never visited Vatican city, but it does not mean there aren't fundamentalist Christian societies all over the place, and that the 2 billion believers are ready to be converted away from Christianity. I've been wrecking my brain to figure out if the Yulpa were an allegory for something in the real world, but I couldn't find a good match. So right now I treat Grenelka like space Afghanistan. There are two things that for me, make the Yulpa unique among all the species we have met in NoP universe: 1. Their religion is more prominent on their world, than any other. We have seen several species who still practice religion, even Gojids, and that planet where two species live together and one turned out to be a converted omnivore. But non of them had the facilities or the powerful religious organization Grenelka has. 2. While most Federation manufactured religions in the galaxy view predators as something between heretics and demons, the Yulpa religion is radically different: It views predators as fuel for life it self. They are necessary, not to be purged or kept away, but to be hunted and sacrificed. And this makes their religion not just dangerous, but harder to debunk. Its one thing when your spiritual beliefs seem to mirror a pseudoscientific racism that just got blown out of the water by the Archives reveal. Its a whole different ball game when you think you are a bunch of space vampires who need to sacrifice others to get their life force. And one last thing: My impression of Mallin is that he isn't "dense". He is retarded. I know this word is unacceptable today in some countries, but since I can't really diagnose a fictional alien character through one short story, this is the best term I can use. He is incapable of grasping abstract concepts which is a hindrance to his daily life, but also makes him immune to religion. That is the only reason he was able to side with the human (forgot his name), after the guy was nice to him. So no, I don't see a way out for the Yulpa. I am sorry if I offended you with my attitude towards religion, but I've seen religion cause enough death to not take it lightly. Not the fanatic kind the Yulpa have.

Some Lvm

@Some Lvm In terms of the universe, I’m not saying that we have some moral obligation to be better, but rather that we CAN CHOOSE to have a moral obligation. And, yes, technically we have no obligation to help our enemies. But we can still CHOOSE to make it our obligation. I don’t agree with your statement regarding religion. It comes off as a complete distortion of my point that people CAN change, in direct contrast to your implication that their religion holds too much power to convert people away from their religion. I’m not talking about asking them who’s willing to cast off their beliefs and then taking them off world; I’m talking about occupying their world and THEN giving help to the ones willing to listen. Not easy, but still. I DEFINITELY don’t agree with your estimation at the prospects of how many Yulpa would be willing to change; you brought up how Mallin had a mental condition, but he was just dense. Besides that, you have to consider that the perspective we got in the Sacrifice miniseries was INCREDIBLY skewed. All the people in the stands? The most devout followers of their religion. Those who were less sure would probably have stayed home. We got chief religious figures, Predator Hunters, and Exterminators. We got to see the worst of their society, and that’s why you’re saying that 1 in 1000 is a generous estimation? We saw their absolute worst, who by no means should be expected to have any doubts, and Mallin STILL broke the mould. If we were to see the other side of their society, the ones who didn’t want to go the the sacrifice, the parents and families that stayed home, etc, the numbers would probably shift at least a little. My point about the soldiers was that they signed onto serve to protect their friends and family KNOWING that they may be ordered to do things that they don’t agree with or might not like to do. Yes, they didn’t sign on specifically to save or slaughter aliens, but they someone direct power over them (superior officers) IN RETURN for the ability to fight for those they cared about. In a sense, they DID sign up for this. Just not directly. As for your questions about what to do with all these defecting Yulpa, the answer to that is likely going to depend at least partially on the plans for talking the planet. But regardless, the SC has a pretty hefty refugee network, given how many whole species were helped by the Paltans alone. Worst case scenario, there’s that. More likely, there’ll be a more in depth and hands on approach, based on the outcome of the war. I agree your statement that “intentionally targeting civilians is [un]acceptable if it can be avoided, but if it can't than those lives are forfeit”, but I think that it’s VERY clear by now that we both have VERY different beliefs on what “if it can be avoided” means. I still believe it can be avoided. You’ve already stated your support of bombing the planet. I’d like to bring up your last point, “their lives should not be thrown away for a chance that one in a thousand enemies will have enough sense to change their mind at the last second.” Well, first of all, once again, you are phrasing the Yulpa like all of them have been in possession of all the facts and been free to make their decisions this whole time. That’s whats implied by “will have enough sense to change their minds at the last second”. If they weren’t in possession of all the facts or information, they didn’t really make up their mind, did they? They had idea forced into their heads by propaganda. But ON TOP of that, this is a little ridiculous; you previously bring up how you feel that people who don’t conform in Yulpa society would be ostracized and put in Predator Disease Facilities. This would mean that there would be potentially MANY dissidents who are keeping quiet for their own protection. We’ve even SEEN this on other worlds (i.e. Felra felt that there were nonviolent strains of Predator Disease, but kept it to herself until she felt sure that “Siffy” had Predator Disease, and would therefore be unlikely to talk). Where did THOSE Yulpa go when you were grouping them all into one clump?!? And you talk about not throwing away the lives of the soldiers who signed on KNOWING that they might be sent into a combat that they have next to no chance of surviving, but you support throwing away the lives of the civilians, who never signed up for this by ANY stretch, and most of whom are only involved due to the bad fortune of being born Yulpa. Honestly, you confuse me on this. You skew the odds of any Yulpa being good, until you call 1 in 1000 “optimistic”, when I used that as an extremely LOW number, you ignore whole groups of Yulpa who may be being repressed when you talk about them, and you write about them as though they ALL have the full story, even though I’ve pointed out how that’s probably not the case. You keep asking questions about how I believe we can save civilians, picking at the logistics and required resources, but you talk about how you feel that avoidable civilian targets are unacceptable. If you feel that way, why are you asking me to solve the problem for you, instead of trying to solve it yourself before committing to plans that would kill billions of civilians? It’s confusing. Who are you trying to convince that the Yulpa can’t be saved/are not worth the effort? Me, or yourself? My focus is on the moral issues at play, and on questioning the necessity of killing them off. That’s the heart of my argument. But it’s like you’ve abandoned the moral angle entirely here, and your stances on necessity are beginning to sound contradictory and fallacious to me. Please clarify.

EliasArt2Life

@Elias: I agree about the universe not caring, but not about humans being above the universe, or specifically, above reality. We may have a lot of technology and are able to shape our environment more than the animals, but in the end we can't break the laws of physics, or even the governing principals of large societies. Lets say 1 in 1000 Yulpa does convert. I think that is an optimistic figure, don't forget Mallin had a mental condition, but for the sake of argument, lets say I agree. What now? Do we let any Yulpa who denounces their religion live, and start slaughtering all the others? Do we take them off the planet, and set up a separate colony just for atheist Yulpa? What about those who will have to leave their families because of such separation? 1 in a 1000 conversion rate pretty much guarantees there will be many such cases. I am not at all an example for this. I was never in danger. I didn't even have a falling out with family and friends, because non of them were so ultra religious they would shun me for leaving the faith. I do know people who had to leave their families, and even relocate to different cities because their religious society couldn't handle them being LGBT, joining the military, or just believing less. But even that would not compare to the "predator disease" label non believer Yulpa would get. They can't stay where they are, and I don't see the UN coming up with a good solution for them. Dump them on Ivrana? Is there even room left after the Sivkits and Farsul? As for the UN soldiers, they did not sign up for this! Putting aside that fact the UN may have to forcefully conscript people to get enough boots on the ground for such a significant operation, even people who join the military of their own free will don't do it to cuddle the enemy or to fix someone else's beliefs. They do it to protect their loved ones, their country, their way of life. Sacrificing soldiers to save the enemy from them selves is never acceptable nor moral. Once you are part of a society that chose war - that became the aggressor and refuses to surrender, even if you disagree with your society, it is not the obligation of your enemy to save you. Yes, there are rules of war, I am not saying intentionally targeting civilians is acceptable if it can be avoided, but if it can't than those lives are forfeit. I see you can sympathize with the innocent Yulpa and I understand it, but I also sympathize with the Coalition soldiers, who also have lives outside the military, families, loved ones. They are innocent too - they didn't come there because they wanted to conquer or massacre, or because of hate. (Maybe some individuals, but not most) They came because it was their duty to defend their people from a threat. A threat that had no justification for the attack. And their lives should not be thrown away for a chance that one in a thousand enemies will have enough sense to change their mind at the last second.

Some Lvm

@Some Lvm Even if only 1 in 1000 Yulpa are capable of changing, shouldn’t they they be given the CHANCE to change? You and I BOTH agree that we’re at the end of the rope of all the diplomacy we can do with the Yulpa. One way or another, Yulpa society as it is today will cease to exist. And, you’re right; their religion IS the biggest issue with them. I believe I commented on that extensively during the Sacrifice miniseries. But YOU are proof that it’s possible for someone to abandon their religion; to change their beliefs. I’m not looking for a solution that saves the entirety of Yulpa society; I’m looking for a solution that saves as many of those outliers as possible. Yes. Most of them will probably refute the evidence as fictitious, and push back. But if we can reach those who are willing to listen, and shape the environment to allow them to make a choice with minimal fear of reprisal from their peers, we could give them the chance that they would have never had otherwise. I know, you think that this is sacrificing too much for too little, that those innocents who die are acceptable losses, that we shouldn’t take that risk. Maybe your right. But when I think about what it would be like to BE that “acceptable loss”, the person who wasn’t worth even trying to save because of the potential waste or loss, it becomes a lot harder to claim that it’s right. The universe isn’t fair: it’s cold, callous, and uncaring. But that doesn’t mean WE have to be. Humans claim to be above nature in so many ways; we strive to be better than who we were yesterday, better than us of the past. Why should we not choose to be better than the universe? And in the end, the universe won’t care what we decide to do. But we CAN. The Yulpa may be a BIG struggle, but if we can spare some Yulpa, maybe ones like Mallin, from undeserved suffering, why isn’t that worth it? The soldiers risking their lives, they CHOSE this, and knew the risks, yet they chose it nonetheless. Those citizens on the surface, they never GOT to choose. That choice is being made for them by others. I don’t deny that it’s hard. But it’s worth it.

EliasArt2Life

@Elias: regarding your position on Religion - Atheism debate I agree. I used to be religious in my youth and truly believed God existed. I still remember how it felt to say something against Him or the religion - not "scary, I'll go to the bad place" but dirty, like an infection, getting a disease. It just felt wrong on a deep level. It took me a decade to change my beliefs and even now I sometimes get pings of guilt during more heated arguments. Back to the Yulpa though: Ok, assuming you are right regarding the distribution of Archives, and I honestly don't remember enough details to argue this point, do you still think simply exposing Yulpa civilians to that information would work? Like, what should the UN do? Land on Grenelka and start herding Yulpa in to auditoriums to screen Archive footage to them for an hour? How do you go proving to an average Joe that footage is even real? Everyone knows about deep fakes today, and in the 2160's age AI are way ahead. I mean, they faked 2 whole people... My impression is that trying to convert the Yulpa would cost the lives of many Coalition troops, while having no significant results to show for it. The US spent 2 decades in Afghanistan post 9/11 trying to hunt down the religious fanatics while establishing a Western society, and the second they pull out it is all erased, and girls there are not even allowed in schools any more. The real problem with religion, as I see it, is not people's personal belief. It is organized religion, and the people in its command structure that claim to deliver the word of the deity to the masses, which is something the Yulpa have big time. And unlike Earth, they have only one single religion, with one single stream and authority figure (their high priestess), governing the whole planet. That is a hell of a lot of power to contend with...

Some Lvm

@Some Lvm Yeah, I’m not going to defend those guys on the forums. I’m religious, but my opinion on them is that they are somewhere between willing idiots and fools. They can’t seem to get it through their thick skulls that either their conversion methods don’t apply to you because it doesn’t matter for your world view, you’ve heard that method a thousand times and it still doesn’t matter, you have your own answers, or a combination of all of them. There’s no flexibility, no creativity, no empathy, and they never consider that maybe this insane repetition of badgering others is only pushing them AWAY and making their religion look WORSE rather than more appealing. And don’t even get me STARTED on the dumb “you’ll be sent to this place of eternal torment if you don’t follow my religion” talk. People don’t tend to be very receptive towards groups that talk about them like they’re the bad guys. They don’t bother seeing things from your point of view; only from their point of view. I think the issue lies in that everyone believes that everyone else in their religion follows it for the same reason as they do. But that’s not the case; some people follow a religion for the hope of salvation, for others it gives them purpose, for others it’s like a coping strategy; taking control away from them and putting it in divine hands, and many MORE reasons. They’re all personal to the individual. But religion tries to ignore this aspect, acting like everyone joined for the same reason; because it’s right. By doing this, it inadvertently gives people the idea that everyone joined for the same reason, and then they try to argue for why someone should convert, but they aren’t using arguments that would convince THAT person, NO, they’re using arguments that would convince THEMSELVES. Flawed methods, flawed reasoning, lack of empathy, and lack of awareness. Disgraceful, and something I feel needs to be addressed and discussed about in religious circles more often. And that’s just ignoring the fact that if someone’s not interested in being converted, you accept their decision and DON’T PUSH IT. Come on! Have some of the basic common decency that is supposed to be part of the religion. Honestly, I like atheists; well, to be exact, I find there’s a valuable philosophy that many atheists display. That acceptance of death being the end, and finding value in this life. Seeing many religious people ignoring their life on Earth and feeling that it doesn’t matter since they can be eternally rewarded for their devotion has always been sad. I respect that atheists choose to value and make the most out of this life. More religious individuals could do well to learn that. Not to say that atheists are perfect, even on this matter; most atheists don’t know what to say that would actually have an impact, when trying to debate religious individuals. Often when trying to debate someone attempting to convert them I see the conversation go round and round in circles, and in the end, both sides think they came out ahead. But they never do. Neither of them landed a single blow, because they were both aiming at targets far away from where they thought they were aiming. They both go back and talk about how stupid and ignorant the other came off as. Still, I think atheists usually come off as less full of themselves and a bit kinder. Some of the best Christians I’ve met never went to church, and never once cared about any religion. Yet them embodied Christian ideals better than people who go to church every week and can recite nearly every Bible verse from memory. I always keep that in mind. As for the other stuff, I don’t have much to comment on, only one small correction: “They Yulpa already know the information from the archives. The UN made it public to the whole galaxy as I recall.” The UN made the Archives info AVAILABLE to the galaxy, but you need to remember that many species had cut off communications with humanity, so those Archives wouldn’t reach species who wouldn’t accept the files (like the Yulpa). Even then, the files were sent to the governments, rather than being put on the public networks, so if the government wanted to keep things hushed up, they could do it.

EliasArt2Life

@Elias: First, to clarify about my "forums" quip, I am an atheist and I participate in Atheism forums, but despite their title they usually end up as places where half the participants are religious people trying to convince the other half they are wrong, and god (of some form or another) is real. I don't know if that kind of thing is specific to my country and culture or happens elsewhere, and forums in general are dying due to the evolution of social media, but its still a pass time for some... I do understand how you feel about killing, I don't think anyone really know if they are capable of taking a life until they are really pushed in to a position to do it. I served in the army, and I am very thankful and lucky that I never had to aim a loaded weapon at anything other than a cardboard target in a range. That said, I am projecting my feelings regarding some real events I will not go in to on to the Yulpa. I didn't mean to say it would be impossible to convert a society because it is too much work. What I meant was that the tools the Federation used, and the conditions that allowed those tools to be effective, are not available to the SC. The Federation made contact with pref-FTL, in one case we know of pre-technolgical societies, and used their knowledge and technology to brainwash and falsify the past. On the flip side, all humanity did was expose the truth. And some people accepted it and chose to change, while others became the Remnants. They Yulpa already know the information from the archives. The UN made it public to the whole galaxy as I recall. They know what the Kolshians and Farsul did, why they did it, and how they did it. And still they chose to double down on their beliefs, they still revere the Kolshians rather than hate them. Even the Arxur, after centuries of eugenics, starvation, and cruel teachings had enough individuals to change their society the second the truth came out and an opportunity presented it self. But not the Yulpa. They already know the truth and most of them don't care. Even if a few individuals do, clearly they are not enough to even be noticeable. So there is no convincing them as a whole with simple talks and some videos. You need to convert them away from their religion, and that is nothing short of Jihad or Crusade. And we know how those things go.

Some Lvm

@Some Lvm I’ll skip the A) - C), since I know we could argue that for ages, but I do want to talk a little about the other things you brought up. In terms of you saying that we can’t reprogram their society due to the work it would take, I’d like to make a few points: A) In the NOP universe, reprogramming religious society has been done multiple times. All the converted omnivores. The Federation converted them and changed their religions, and humanity deconverted them. So, at least as far as NOP goes, there’s an error in logic there. B) Who’s saying that we’re going to hide their true history from them? Let them have it! Also let them have the Archives records showing how the Kolshians and Farsul manipulated their society and religion. Also let them know why their actions forced the SC to take over. Let them have the history of them being the ones to declare war. Maybe we don’t convince everyone, but for the start of change, we only need to convince a decent amount. “I should know, I do it a lot on certain forums :P” I’m sorry, can you clarify? Do you argue with people like that, or are you the person like that and this is a self reflective jab at yourself? Well, I’ll admit that you’re right about me being unable to accept there comes a time when killing is necessary. Or, to be more exact, I understand that’s the case, but I’m unable to commit to it. I couldn’t kill to save my life. Literally. I don’t even kill mosquitoes or gnats or things like that. I just leave them alone. If they end up getting killed or smashed because they flew into the wrong place, I tend to get depressed and feel terrible for the next quarter of a day. While I’m capable of harming others nonlethaly, I can’t turn off my empathy, and tend to get the short end of the stick in that exchange; I hurt somebody and then feel a deep emotional pain until I suffered more than I made them suffer. That’s the thing; I’ve had to learn how to function when taking the direct, harmful route wasn’t an option for me. And, yes, there have been times where I couldn’t solve the problem without taking that direct approach, but those times were surprisingly few and far between. Once I learned how, I could stand up for myself without having to lash out at others. And when I DID have to lash out, I usually found that less damage needed to be done than I thought would be needed. Overall, my issue isn’t a question of is violence sometimes necessary, but if NOW is the time and HOW MUCH. The Yulpa have pushed us to a place where we have no choice but to lash out at them. I’m not denying that. But do we NEED to destroy them utterly? I don’t know about that.

EliasArt2Life

@Elias: no need to apologize, I have been away from the site for a week anyway. Yes, notifications on patrion suck... But back our conversation: A) Their main threat is that they are religious fanatics and can use that to justify any action, against anyone. Reminder: they attacked a colony that did nothing to them, belonging to a species that did not attack them. B) If the Yulpa do have colonies that are independent enough, those can and should be targeted next. But we don't know if they do. As for extraplanetary migration, a few Yulpa living on another world would not be an issue - like I said, I am not looking at exterminating them as a species, only at destroying their stronghold and robbing them of any power so as to remove them as a threat. C) If Yulpa have allies, and I mean real allies who will come and try to rebuild their planet, let them come. The way I see it, most of the Fed remnants are just hiding behind the Yulpa, because the Yulpa are willing to fight. Just like in the old Federation, most species have been over pacified by the founders, and many of the militant species left to keep order are now gone or on the other side of the conflict. Like I said before - it is not feasible to reprogram a society. It has been done in the fictional NoP universe, but the way it was done was way bloodier than what I am proposing. In addition to that, what was done to the Venlil may not be feasible without the totalitarian control of information the old Federation imposed. For the SC, there will be no way to keep the Yulpa kids from learning about their true past. Keep in mind that the problem with Yulpa, unlike any other Fed species, is that their anti predator beliefs are religion based, rather than politics or pseudo science. Changing religious beliefs, especially among zealots, is next to impossible. Arguing against a supernatural narrative that can easily be shifted to dismiss any arguments and throws logic our the window is a waste of time. I should know, I do it a lot on certain forums :P I think you simply refuse to recognize that there comes a point in a conflict where you have to kill those looking to harm you and yours, and there is no magical solution to that whether you are using pointy sticks or antimatter bombs. I recognize that killing is against the instincts of any normative person, especially in societies that had enjoyed piece for decades like North America and most of Europe, but you can't escape the reality of war.

Some Lvm

The big thing about switching hardware is that it's impossible, because you are the hardware so replacing it simply replaces the person, it makes no difference how similar the copy is. Memory lose is a result of damage to our hardware. If I woke up one day in a hospital with complete amnesia, I would still be the same person but with pieces missing from myself. If I then sat up and saw a perfect clone of myself with all my old memories sitting across on another bed. That clone, no matter how identical the facsimile would their own individual.

DemonVee

@Some Lvm Sorry; I don’t get notifications for replies on other people’s comments. I’ll just keep this short to make sure I’m not dragging you back here. Honestly, you can say “realistic” but I dosagree on three counts: A) their main threat is their desire to capture predators and essentially farm them for sacrifice. B) space faring civilizations are hard to keep down on account of colonies and extraplanetary emigration. C) your idea is NOT the most realistic. Once you bomb the world, you have to maintain a presence in the system to prevent Yulpa allies from rescuing those who remain. At that point, you might as well do what was done at Talsk and Aafa; attack military resources, remove the government, put in a puppet government, and quarantine the world. Same effect, less munitions used, and the planet and it’s biodiversity don’t become casualties. Ironically, the Yulpa are the one group that I have agreed needed a more forceful approach; during the Sacrifice miniseries, I stated that the cyber attack should have continued until the UN could come in and take over. I was willing to accept a forceful rework of their culture, because their culture was uncompromisingly incompatible with not only us, but anyone who sided with us. I AM willing to accept the more aggressive courses of action. I just don’t go for it until I’m sure that it’s either necessary or vastly superior to the other options.

EliasArt2Life

I'm mostly with Robomeier on this one. He's not the original Elias, he's a legacy. I mean, the simple fact that you could theoretically make a robot from transcripts taken before someone died is proof enough to me that a robot copy isn't the same person. But there's also nothing wrong with being a copy of the original, carrying on the legacy. Personally, if that sort of technology existed, I would genuinely love to fork myself. Having two of me would be a blast.

David Bollinger

Your description of how LLMs work is spot on! I have to say, you have a very eloquent way of expressing your thoughts in writing, while I admit that I my self often struggle here. But here is what I wonder: How did Virnt build Robo Meir? We don't see any examples of what today is called "AGI" - Artificial General Intelligence in the NoP universe. Nothing that would come close to the way AI is usually portrayed in fiction, which is basically a computer that thinks like a human with some hangups. We see autonomous vehicles, and personal digital assistants and social media censorship algorithms, as well as translator AI. They are all basically just a slightly upgraded versions of real life programs and algorithms we have today, non of which qualify for the "sapient" descriptor. One issue we have with simulating a human brain in a computer today, is that the way computer chips are built, and the way a human brain is built are radically different in terms of architecture. I am far from an expert on it, and I don't want to reach the character limit on this, so I will just ask - have you heard of "neuromorphic computing"? So, back to Meir: He is a prototype, the absolute first of his kind, and we see no intermediate steps, or attempts with better candidates. As I mentioned before - Meir's information is the most low quality for this project, gathered before memory transcriptions were even a thing, and also postmortem. And yet he is chosen as the first subject. To add to that, he is instantiated immediately in a complete, human looking android body, rather than in a virtual environment. This implies whatever computing resources are used to run his "simulation" are limited in terms of space, heat dissipation, and power. What I am trying to say is, it does not seem plausible Virnt made enough breakthroughs to make sapience in this form possible within the NoP universe cannon. Regarding generative AI today, how "new" what they make is mostly in the eyes of the beholder: yes, technically they are just a big blender, mixing and matching parts of their training data to generate output. But if you cut up an existing creation in to small enough pieces and mix enough of them, the result will look new to an average human. A while back, an AI generated image (I think it was made with Midjourney) won some art contest. So I don't see anything Robo Meir did as being original enough to justify he isn't just regurgitating bits an pieces of old Meirs scan. Don't forget: he expressed grief over the cyberattack and over sending the Arxur to Krakotle homeworld. Now, obviously we are arguing here over a fictional character based on our interpretation of what the author written about said character so far, non of which really delves deep in to the essence of said charter. Which means we could both be right and both be wrong at the same time, and maybe even SP hasn't decided yet what Meir truly is and what his future holds. But for now, I am far from convinced of his sapience.

Some Lvm

@Some Lvm Alright. We’ll drop the identity portion. In terms of your theory that this Meier is malfunctioning… I’m going to be frank, I think that you’re reaching. First of all, since we keep talking about it, we should probably specify what Chat GPT/LLM is in the first place. It’s basically an program that takes a set of data and analyzes it in order to create a predictive algorithm. In other words, that prediction of what you’re trying to type in the Google Search bar, or that appears on an iPhone when you’re texting? A LLM is basically a high powered version of that. And, just like those examples, as you get longer and longer strings of inputs, the outputs get more and more off the mark. Slight inconsistencies spiral out of control; as the connection to the human element gets further and further away, the pattern gets more and more erratic. The AI isn’t going “rouge”; it’s doing exactly what it was programmed to do, only it was never equipped to function independently of humans for such an extended period of time. So, it makes sense what you’re saying; it is possible that this Meier’s actions suggest he’s reaching this point where his predictive algorithm is breaking down. Except for one thing; the other flaw with LLMs. By their nature, LLMs cannot create: they can only mix up, splice, and reuse. They are incapable of creating anything from scratch, or of creating anything “new”. What they create is an amalgamation, a Frankensteinian conglomerate of bits and pieces that their algorithm predicts belong together. However, it can only pull from the pool of information it originally had. While it can expand that pool through retention of information given to it (prompts and reactions to its answers), it is limited in that way. It cannot put new ideas together like humans do (although, the similarities between the two would be an interesting discussion all of itself). So, what these two flaws mean together is that this Meier should have a LOT of difficulty adapting, and should be limited by his programmed data. Don’t forget, Chat GPT is trained on much of the internet, far more data than people could hope to store in their brains, and it STILL breaks down and gives strange answers pretty often, to the point that it’s become meme-able. This Meier was trained on ONE human’s memories. Much less than Chat GPT, but its lasted for MONTHS of constant use. Combine that with the fact that he’s consistently dealing with situations that Meier never had to, or is dealing with them in WAYS Meier didn’t originally, but his reasons for coming to these conclusions are based on growth and decisions (he expressed remorse at the loss of life that happened on his watch due to holding out too much hope for diplomacy, and now he’s making sure to focus on potential military actions earlier), I find the suggestion that he’s just like a Chat GPT AI… unlikely. The chance that he’s having an algorithmic breakdown that mimics growth, but doesn’t go too far and get weird… I think were past the realm of statistical probability here. And all of THAT ignores his ongoing identity crisis! Something the ORIGINAL Elias Meier never had to deal with. Theoretically, his algorithms should have broken down soon after being awakened, due to a lack of information about how Elias Meier would have reacted to being put into an android body, and he should have DEFINITELY never come to the conclusion that he was no longer who his memories said that he was. This goes beyond an AI going off prompt. Now the question of what kind of AI this Meier is, and if it can be called sapient or alive (in the philosophical sense, not the scientific sense) is another issue. One that I’m not sure if it can be answered without additional information. I’ll admit, I DO kind of like the idea of this Meier having a mental breakdown as his persona strays farther and farther from its source. I don’t like it enough to actually SUGGEST it to Space Paladin (I had a hard enough time with Slanek’s breakdown), but still, it is interesting. That being said, I’m more worried of a different kind of breakdown; I’ve noticed in fiction, whenever there’s a “duplicate” of someone, 8/10 times they end up having some sort of mental breakdown (the one in Tales of the Abyss was PRETTY interesting). Whether a clone, complete replica, AI, robot, or whatever, a lot of the duplicates end up going through a massive personality shift in an attempt to wrestle with their identity. I predict if this Meier has a breakdown, it’ll be this kind of breakdown.

EliasArt2Life

@Apogee: what I see happening, realistically, is Arxur conducting a heavy bombing of Grenelka after destroying their orbital defenses and whatever fleet they manage to field. I don't think Kisal intends to fully glass the planet, nor do I expect anyone to actually try and hunt down every last Yulpa in the galaxy. There will probably be many more than a million survivors, but my concern is that even this would prove too much for UN's taste and they would try to stop some of the bombings, and get in to a fight with the Arxur. I would settle for destroying all industrial hubs, military bases, religious installation (like that Colosseum where they intended to sacrifice that human), anything that looks remotely like a spaceport or airport, and any other major communications and transportation facilities. This may end up leveling some major cities as collateral damage. While I honestly think the Yulpa fully deserve being properly glassed and leaving no survivors, the least evil and most realistic solution would be hitting them hard enough to make sure they don't make it back to space or call for help in the next 100 years or so, and also left with no standing symbols of their murderous religion.

Some Lvm

Ok, in hind sight, the first part of my previous reply kind of went off the rails. I think I might have actually got mixed up internally between your actual comment and something else I was thinking about at the time, so lets consider the part about identity a runaway rant of mine, and leave it at that. Regarding Meir being a Chat GPT style AI or not, the thing about a real life LLM, is that it is incapable of answering a prompt with "I don't know". What we have today are not in any way AI. That is, these programs are not intelligent, they are not capable of comprehending anything or reasoning. All they do is use some sophisticated statistics to generate a probable answer to a question you pose to them. This is were "AI hallucinations" come from. I am sure you have heard about LLMs writing crazy things, like telling people to kill themselves, falling in love with them, or advising to eat rocks. Obviously they were never designed to do stuff like that, but the algorithm has bugs, and that is the result. Which brings us back to Robo Meir: There is option number 3 you are overlooking: The Meir AI may have gone off script due to a bug, not because it has grown beyond its original parameters and actually realized a military solution was needed. Original Meir did in the end authorize military action, even if reluctantly, so such thing is not outside this AI's training data. We know real world AI doesn't always follow prompts well, so there is no reason to assume future AI not following a prompt is a sign of sapience. My issue with Robo Meir is the way in which he was created. NoP is far from the first and only thing I read (or watched) that deals with the concept of resurrection through some digital, scientific method. But this is one that strays pretty far from what can be considered a reliable transfer of conciseness. I mean SP stated that even to generate a standard memory transcription from a scan an AI is needed, meaning there is some no linear, non straight forward interpretation needed of the brain scans. Its not like a microphone that hears your thoughts and encodes them to electrical signal. Its at least in part guess work. So imagine how much guess works goes to actually reconstructing a whole conciseness, not just some static data.

Some Lvm

When you say delete them, do you mean the entire species or just most? Because I can see most dying, maybe leaving less than a million left, and I would say whatever path takes the least amount of lives to be the best one given the situation. Life is more important than culture and tradition

Apogee

I hope you are right. I got the distinct feeling the clusterfuck pileup isn't over yet...

Some Lvm

@Apogee: what exactly makes you think it is possible to simply "reconfigure" a society? I mean sure - if you think it is moral to do to the Yulpa what the Feds did to the Venlil, it might work, but is it any more moral than just bombing them in to extinction? And what will it cost the SC to try and pull off such an undertaking? Is it even feasible in the current political climate? @Elias: this isn't about what is easy or hard. It is about what is realistic. Like it or not the SC is not omnipotent. They have only so much resources, only so much tech. The Yulpa are a space fairing race who still think it is acceptable to murder innocent sapiens for a religious ritual. More over, even two decade after learning their beliefs were a lie, a fabrication by people who oppressed them and colluded with the worst predators in the galaxy, the Yulpa society did not change. There was no uprising, no resistance, no rebellion. The Krakotle changed their society through a separatist movement. The Arxur overthrow their dictatorship with little help and overhauled their society all by themselves while being in isolation. Heck, even the Kolshian civilians turned on their Shadow Caste at the last moments of the war. Deleting the Yulpa may not be the moral solution, but it is the least evil among all the feasible ones. There is nothing moral about leaving them to kill more innocents. Don't forget - they tried to hit a human civilian colony, even though humanity did not attack them! Honestly, I don't even think the Arxur will finish them off. Just cause enough damage to send their civilization back to the stone age so that they will not be a threat to anyone in the foreseeable future even without a Kesler cage. But I have a feeling even that would prove too much for the UN. And will likely lead to a completely needless and unjust war with the Arxur, just to protect the absolute worst people in the galaxy, from the ones who made the most efforts to right their wrongs.

Some Lvm

@Apogee Agreed. Typically, if a moral decision has to be made, the morally wrong decision tends to be the easiest one to make. The morally good one is the one that you know is going to be super hard and will cost you a lot. After all, if morality was easy, we wouldn’t need to be taught right from wrong as children. It’d just be about taking the easy road.

EliasArt2Life

@Some Lvm Okay, I’m going to assume that you meant your reply as a statement of your opinion, and not that you’re trying to invalidate my opinion, which I stated was my opinion, with that preface “nope.”, as I don’t want to get argumentative if I’m unsure that you were intending to. I’d like to ask for clarification on that first part; you said, “we as a society need the ability to identify other people, who we perceive through our senses based on their physical appearance and actions, and thus we form an identity for them which we can agree on and communicate to each other.” Now, I’m trying to figure out what you were trying to counter in my comment, as I said that an identity, as far as we are capable of understanding it, will be a combination of how we perceive ourselves and how other perceive us. Which seems to be just another way of saying what you said, just less specifically. Furthermore, I don’t think the last part about people agreeing on an identity is very realistic. I’ve observed for a long time, and I can tell you that how people see other people rarely matches up with how they see themselves. If you were to tell me what you think my identity is, I’d be surprised if I agreed with it. And if I told you how I see myself, you’d probably tell me that I’m wrong. “An individual trying to force us to ignore this identity in favor of something that exists only in their mind would be no more than a dictator forcing a belief on other people against their will.” Please explain where you’re getting this? I never said anything about a person’s identity being what they say it is, forced onto someone else. I said that an individual’s perception of themselves is PART of their identity, but that’s a FAR cry from it being the sole aspect of their identity, forced onto others. I disagree with your conclusion about this Meier being the equivalent to Chat GPT. Your concerns over if he counts as sapient or not is understandable, but I think your feelings about him not having any thoughts of his own are clouding your judgement. My proof; your own statements about (original) Meier where you CONSISTENTLY claimed that he was too dedicated to peace and never had the guts to even seriously consider military action against confirmed enemies, let alone just potential enemies. If this Meier is only able to use what the original Meier had, this Meier should be unable to find the guts to even think about taking military action. However, in this chapter, he thinks “We need to dismantle the Federation’s successor before we decide whether the KC needs a drastic, forceable overhaul. The Sapient Coalition can’t throw up our hands and turn a blind eye again, long-term, if they’re as bad as Gress believes.” He is LEGITIMATELY CONSIDERING the possibility that humanity and the SC will need to go to war with the KC at some point in the future. By your own analysis of Meier, this should not be a set of actions he would consider. Meaning that an AI meant to perfectly emulate Meier should not be thinking about this stuff. That leaves us with two options for how this Meier had that thought: 1) the original Meier was more military minded and ready to accept the possibility of war than you have adamantly maintained, 2) this AI is growing beyond the data provided, which would disqualify it from being the equivalent of a “Chat GPT 9000 with the prompt "be Elias Meir".” In which case we have no analogous AI in the modern day to compare this Meier to. Look, I just want some clarification over what your stances are without having to juggle contradictions. I don’t like “have your cake and eat it too” arguments, as they don’t really go anywhere, and give mixed messages. If you could disambiguate these stances before we continue, I’d appreciate it.

EliasArt2Life

I mean the Yulpa don’t deserve to be genocided, but they will definitely be a pain in the ass. Defeating them in this battle will only be the start, it will take alot of work to reconfigure their society (I see alot of Yulpa terrorists in the future) but just because genocide is easier doesn’t make it right

Apogee

If you insist.

kabhes

If Jones really is half the spy master she appears to be, I seriously doubt she is about to be fired over some minor extortion. Heck, she probably has plenty of leverage on Osmani to make sure he stays in line. He isn't really in the position to be her boss. I can't wait to see what the UN fleet does at Grenelka. The way things are going I have a feeling it will be more harm than good. They are too likely to turn on the Arxur and attempt to protect the Yulpa, instead of saving the Arxur, who probably need no help against Fed forces. Even if Yulpa end up fielding some surprises, it won't be enough, while I am certain the Arxur plan on finishing the job properly, something the UN just won't stand for, because much like the real life UN we have today, they care more about who is an underdog in a fight, than who is actually evil.

Some Lvm

Nope. Mental gymnastics aside, we as a society need the ability to identify other people, who we perceive through our senses based on their physical appearance and actions, and thus we form an identity for them which we can agree on and communicate to each other. An individual trying to force us to ignore this identity in favor of something that exists only in their mind would be no more than a dictator forcing a belief on other people against their will. Robo Meir isn't Meir not because he came to that conclusion, but because physically and mentally he never was. He is an algorithm running an AI deduced set of memories, taken from a postmortem recording generated through equipment never designed to actually record memories. He is basically a computer's guess of what Meir used to be like, and that is why he feels the disconnection he does. There is even a question of - is he actually sapient, or does he just pretend to be, because that is what his algorithm was designed to do? Just as a photograph may accurately depict a person but is not the body of that person, so is Robo Meir may have somewhat accurate memories of Elias Meir, but he does not have his personality or conciseness. Had Terra Technologies dug up Meir's grave and clone him a real body with Meir's DNA, we would have an even bigger conundrum on our hands, as at least the individual would be a human, and organic sapient, despite still not being the original Meir. But what we really have here, is just Chat GPT 9000 with the prompt "be Elias Meir".

Some Lvm

Fair, but just as it is too easy to forget the evil of necessary evil (where a person like Jones goes overboard), it is also too easy to forget the necessary part.

Adam Myers

If I was miller, I’d change my face and name, if I was based off me I’d keep it since everyone I know is dead anyways. Would be interesting entering the workforce with a new job. I can see problems arising bc AI’s based off other humans could be a big problem too tho and the surveillance or acting like your the original. Atleast the AI thinks like a human tho

Kevo

Well, I’ve said that I’d give my thoughts on this Meier’s identity (do I think he’s real or not) at some point, and this legitimately seems like a good point to do so. I’ve always found this type of question VERY interesting because of how it relates to identity. When you think about it, who REALLY has the rights to say who someone is and isn’t? I mean, think about it; you can say that this Meier isn’t a real person/the real Meier all you like, but do you even really have the right to make that kind of determination about someone else? In fact, who does? A LOT of people fail to recognize basic attributes about themselves, so why should THEY be allowed to say who they are? I more I think about it, the more I feel that the concept of identity is wrapped up in the philosophy of illusions. We all know that there’s a real world, but we can’t actually perceive it. Not really. Everything we perceive is filtered through our sensory organs, which are hardware with differences between each individual, and then analyzed and stitched together with our brains, which also have variation that can distort the signals we receive (for an extreme example, see synesthesia). We also only perceive a tiny portion of the “real world”; we can’t see ultraviolet or infrared light, nor can we feel the individual air molecules hitting our skin, most people can’t feel their blood flowing inside of them unless they’ve been working out for a while, there are frequencies of sound that we just can’t hear, and many more elements of the “real world” that I haven’t mentioned. With so much of reality being missed out on, you’d think that we would see cast holes in our perception of realty but instead, our personal perceptions of reality seem whole and complete to us. Our brains create this illusion of a complete world despite only having a small, distorted fragment of the reality to work with. And no one’s illusion of the world is the same as another person’s. And yet, that doesn’t bother us or cause many troubles for us; the illusion is good enough for us, it is reality TO us. Identity is similar. There is definitely a “true self” out there for each and every one of us, but we’re never going to fully it; we can’t see it because we lack the tools and skills to see it. In fact, there’s a psychological visual tool that describes this very well, called the Johari Window. It splits the “self” into categories: what’s known by yourself and others, what’s known to you but not others, what known to others but not yourself, and what is not known by anyone. In order to know the “true self” you would need to know the entirety of all four of those parts, but this is impossible for the fourth part by it very nature of being what is unknown to everybody. But, if we can’t every hope to know the “true self”, then what can we do about determining someone’s identity? Well, we can accept that what we see is an illusion; a part of the whole that appears to be a whole, and accept that this illusion is good enough. Or, to put it simply, identity, as far as we can determine it given our limited minds, is who we see ourselves as, combined with who others see ourselves as. So, that leaves the question of who this “Elias Meier” is, or to be more exact for the people who have forgotten the wording from the start, who do I think he is? Well, luckily for us, we have these memory transcripts to tell us who HE thinks he is, and we know who we think he is; he feels that he is an artificial life form imprinted with the mind and memories of Elias Meier, but not possessing the hardware or software to truly accept those as his own. As for me, I see very little difference between this Meier and the original. Sure, life may be entirely different for this Meier, but I’VE only ever known Meier through memory transcriptions, like these, so that’s all I can go off of. (Technically, based on that, I could point out that his identity is words on a page, as he has never really existed in the first place, but I’m not going to be that obtuse) The memory transcriptions read like Elias Meier, albeit one who has gone through the mental and physical wringer for far to long. So who do I believe this “Meier” is? I believe him to be an artificial life form, an android, a with Elias Meier’s digitized mind, in a current state of identity flux where he is trying to decide whether to continue clinging onto his original identity, or to embrace a new one.

EliasArt2Life

Filler reply for people on mobile who see the first reply in a chain, like my browser does.

EliasArt2Life

Long comment. I’m posting this one in the replies below. It’s on my thoughts about this Meier’s identity. I welcome replies, as long as you actually read the whole thing and didn’t skim; I’ve gotten some comments like that lately, I’ve gotten some replies like that lately, and it’s frustrating getting into a discussion only to realize 3 replies in that they misinterpreted what I was saying due to skimming.

EliasArt2Life

i got the reference :point:

Alekss Žukovskis

Truly, just about everything that's going wrong this time is the direct result of people who think they're smarter than they actually are, taking risks and making decisions they think have no consequences when they do.

PhycoKrusk

Evil is evil, no matter how necessary, and it must be constrained to prevent it from causing harm. In the case where the evil is necessary, that constraint is all the more important, because Jones is presently _unconstrained_ and is plainly inflicting damage to allies and the UN itself. She just doesn't care because she is thus far undamaged, and since she has projected her own desires and objectives onto the UN, she doesn't see anything wrong with what she's doing.

PhycoKrusk

That, or she at least already guessed that they _might_ try to remove her, so she set up some sort of fail-deadly so she _can't_ be removed.

PhycoKrusk

how do you know the previous you didnt cease to exist when you went to sleep last. We only have the you that woke up to tell us that from their perspective they never ceased to exist for all we know you could just be a clone that woke up with all the memories of the previous you that died when they went to sleep. I think what makes a person is their amalgamation of experiences and thought processes not the continuation of conciousness. you are still the same person as yesterday because you have all the same memories as the person(give or take one or 2 things you may have forgot) so you have the ability to call yourself that person or decide that the memories you have added since then make you a new person

wraith dino

Not entirely unexpected of the android to feel that way. It'd be interesting to see them maybe design a new chassis to wear and pick a new name.

Roscuro

Is it all vibes though? From the perspective of the the original Meier, he just died. He didn’t experience being transferred to a synthetic body, he just ceased existence. Continuity doesn’t end when under anesthesia in the same way as this kind of mind transfer, your brain is still active to some extent under anesthetic, you don’t experience a complete break in continuity.

Peyton Schuman

Hardware shapes software. The type of brain, its available inputs, the design around it, all shape the person within. Its why no Venlil will be a human, nor will any Venlil be a Skalgan. Their bodies (and - in the first comparison - minds) are too different, so they will think different. It's no different with the new Meier. Whether a continuation in a new "hardware" or an entirely new person with the experiences and mindset of the deceased, it hardly matters; the current Meier will never be the same as the old one, as he has entirely different experiences, entirely different inputs, entirely different hardware of all kinds to shape the mind within. Whether he WAS Meier or not is vibes, but he IS no longer Meier either way.

Lokyar

Huh? I meant Terra Technologies

Apogee

what. what am i even looking at? https://tts-systems.com/

Alekss Žukovskis

I see some parallels between Meier and the clone/alter identities in OoCS. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Douglas Biggers

“I expect Radai to keep his word, but you can never be certain of anyone’s intent. Trust but verify.” Based

Gumcel

Mecha Meier going through an identity crisis.

Elliott

It would be hilarious if he changed his name to Nick Valentine.

Wesley Rigg

I'm saying that I don't understand why switching hardware is such a big thing. Which is more the same person - someone struck with 100$ irreversible amnesia, or someone's brain activity transferred to a robot body?

Shajenko

I wouldn’t be surprised. I wonder though, could he if he tried hard enough use the live feed as a back door into TTS systems? He may be able to hack them with his mind

Apogee

It's a bit silly way of viewing things, anything of value about people can't be tossed up to vibes. Nor was your experience discontinued upon surgery because our brain functions never fully cease during sleep or anaesthesia, the closest this analogy would work is if you had somehow fully died on the operating table, and that your brain functions later returned. However, the issue with that angle is that your functions would be just returning to the same brain. Restarting the same hardware in a way, and continuing the same existence/experience from a pause. A clone or a robot would instead be born on that table, moulded into the image of someone else, injected with the memories of events they never experienced (that never happened to them) and be expected to hold the persona and responsibilities of someone they never were. Our minds are an effect of our brain, and they would be existing on completely separate hardware.

DemonVee

its an explosion i'm calling it, or someone has implanted poison gas in Meier. mark my words its gonna be horrific in the next couple chapters.

Alekss Žukovskis

I wonder how that will effect people’s perception of wanting it done

Gavin Pierce

Meier (or whoever he ultimately decides he is) is the first of an entirely new kind of being. Ultimately, he's the only one who can decide what that means.

DDDragoni

fuck the yulpa

fastinn

This seems like a distinction that doesn't really matter. I'm not the same person I was when I was six years old, but nobody would say the experiences I had didn't happen to ME. I've heard "continuity of experience" to be the determining factor, but that would indicate that each time I'd been put under for surgery would mean the old me no longer exists, because I was rendered fully unconscious, breaking my continuity of experience. But no one claims that either. It's all vibes.

Shajenko

Thet thing is that none of those things happened "to him." He was forced into experiencing trauma he never lived himself, accidently turturing a new being.

DemonVee

I think it’s good that he is seeking to be his own person, I bet the that desire will grow the older he gets, and he’s only a few months old now. I wonder if this will set the pattern for future synths, at first activation they are entirely dependent on the template personality but as they get older they grow into their own unique person. This would make the template personality like a parent of sorts. I wonder what name he will pick if he changes it. Edit: another thought hit me. The synths will probably live for thousands of years if not forever meaning, eventually, the template personality will be overshadowed. They definitely should be recognized by law that they are separate persons from their donor

Apogee

Im glad robo Meier learnt freedom from being fully tied the old Elias. In the end any clone would be their own person, no matter how perfect the copy. I bet jones is gonna reveal she already read all of Meiers thoughts, reinforcing the privacy violating aspect of it. Can't wait to see Tassis next pov.

DemonVee

While it would be very important to Meier and is interesting to read his thoughts about it, I find the question of whether he is the "real" Elias Meier to be largely irrelevant. Whether he is some new being or a continuation of the biological body's life, he's the one that exists. And just because his body didn't experience all of the things that his biological body did, they happened and he remembers them. It would be VERY different if none of those things actually happened but he remembered them anyway. Mainly the way I look at it is, Meier had a highly traumatic experience where he violently died and then woke up in a body that caused him physical and mental anguish, at least for a while. That is enough to say "The old me is dead", as much as the Punisher deciding that Frank Castle is dead.

Shajenko

OmniMier

Michael Halpern

Man the yulpans are about to have their asses handed to them I can’t wait!

Byron Ritchie

I would say he’s more the robo-gulliman but that’s just me

Byron Ritchie

All hail the Robo Emperor.

Sci-fi reader

People like Jones - ruthless enforcers - are necessary. But equally so is keeping them on a short leash so they wouldn’t go off the rails threatening your own allies for their own gain. It seems like UN Military Command utterly failed in that regard.

TheBlack2007

Back to Meier! Poor Elias. Still having trouble with his identity. I imagine it must be similar to body dysmorphia. Except with being metal. Personally, I’m in the camp of Robo-Meier *being* Meier. Kinda like how someone can lose a limb, sense, or become paralyzed, very few people refer to those individuals as “no longer themselves”. They can continue being themselves with some changes to their lifestyles. Someone who loses their mental capabilities, however, are usually referred to as “No longer themselves” or “Unrecognizable”. Meier’s *body* was killed, but his *mind* was largely intact. That’s just my thinking though. So the Krev peace deal was signed. That’s one less problem for the SC, for now anyways. I do worry about the Underscales and unknown leaders (and Hathoway, cause screw that guy) though. No telling what they are doing or if Gress is right about the possibility of them having body doubles. The violation of privacy is a troubling fact of being a Synthetic. You would need to have a very high level of trust from whoever is looking over your mind. Maybe Virnt can gain Meier’s trust by getting a brainscan himself and showing it to Meier. (To see the transcript of an autistic bug, that’d be interesting.) I’d love to see Jones get what’s coming to her. “Jones is a necessary evil.” Those don’t usually blow up in your face or hand. What she did is was counterproductive *at best*. The Federation Remnant (FR) had this conflict coming and this time Humanity gets to be the ones to help the Arxur. Kaisal may think the UN/SC aren’t willing to do anything, but that’s just him being short-sighted or impatient. I wonder if the UN is good at long term conflicts due to Humans being endurance hunters. Instinct translating to tactics. Really, interesting that other members of the SC wanted to put the Yulpa (and other FR members) in their place or at least to teach them a lesson. I wonder how the Shield is taking this turn of events. Oh my God, Tassi! So happy to see she’s back! Hopefully she has a better time. With Meier advising Osmani, the SC’s future is looking bright. 4

REDemon14

Fr

Daniel Lewin

Thank you for that, for Hamza saying what needed to be said about Jones. I hope you don’t get too much flak for that.

Adam Myers

Man I love how... Introspective this chapter is. Meier gets a break for the first time since... Well, his creation and he finally has time to settle his thoughts and think of the future. I can't say I'd agree with all of his thoughts and conclusions in his place, but that's the fascinating thing about his experience - no two people would be of truly same mind about it. I also like Osmani's pragmaticism. Admitting benefits of people like Jones while also ousting her for going too far, and his view on Meier basically being a very polite version of "you may just be a copy, but you're a very accurate one and that's good enough for me" definitely paints him as spiritual successor to Zhao's utilitarian command of humanity. Plans to aid the arxur, I hope, work out well, though I also assume that while Kaisal will get his help and be finally grateful, something else will throw a wrench in the plans... Whether it will be the evilsuls appearing at last or Krev doing a last moment betrayal... Oh god I just realized, krev absolutely could reroute the drones to attack the Arxur during battle of Grenelka for aiding the Jaslip rebels, forcing humans to pick a side and potentially restarting SC-KC conflict... That battle suddenly became a big clusterfuck potential. And then there's more hints that there's more to TT than meets the eye... I wonder where that line will lead, as right now I have 0 clue. Overall great chapter and great dive into Elias' character. I can't wait to see how he develops further now that he officially decided to find his own path and has time and opportunity to at least attempt it!

Heroman3003

First lads

Willy


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