Pill Pod 143 - Gaza & Frantz Fanon on Violence
Added 2023-10-21 12:01:25 +0000 UTCWe noticed a few Fanon name drops so this week we decided to read "On Violence" from Wretched of the Earth and see whether it's a useful heuristic for the discourse of violence in Gaza. You can read the chapter here.
Comments
the most discussed part of wrecthed of the earth is its first chapter its also its most polarizing for its subject matter being *violence* sartes introduction is pretty good too even though i know its sort of lame to give sarte props i will give him them here because its pretty good
zolo
2023-11-17 07:39:02 +0000 UTCAmerica Is Real But "Canada" is like "Israel" *anglo canada* is not a human society fit for people to Live it is merely a collection of Cosmopolitan international Outposts pretending to be a culture, Quebec Can apply For EU membership if they so choose when the time comes If the Communist Movement World wide is to be successful we Must Destroy Israrel and Canada And I mean that from the bottom of my heart
zolo
2023-11-17 04:45:40 +0000 UTCon the concept of a peaceful revolution, the 1986 "People Power" revolution in the Philippines might be interesting history.
Miguel de Jesus
2023-11-06 03:59:28 +0000 UTCThis is how the propaganda machine works tho, especially when speech acts are coming from people who have significant social capital like Cosgrave. It's not like your average twitteroid (or army of them) shitting on Israel matters to any of the social systems being discussed. Cosgraves comments actually constitute a real irritation to the system, unlike your average person's performative speech act.
anacidcommie
2023-11-02 14:03:56 +0000 UTCThe perpetual liberal fly in the ointment that is this podcast.
anacidcommie
2023-11-02 13:59:43 +0000 UTCLibs gonna lib. Istg it's like power dynamics don't exist for these people. MF needs to read How Non-Violence Protects the State by Peter Gelderloos. There isn't a single instance of real social progress that wasn't instigated by or heavily featured violent resistance by oppressed groups.
anacidcommie
2023-11-02 13:56:44 +0000 UTCVic is correct... in describing the situation from within the system of geopolitics. A lot of people seem to think Hamas is aiming for peace or "a good outcome" by the values of the global order, implying they are incapable of strategic thought. But it seems to me Israel/USA are the ones with least agency in this recent exchange. Like the Taliban, Hamas seem to have some sort of Valhalla/Spartan mindset that is an enormous force multiplier, especially in an information war: eternal subjects against instantaneous subjects. Why would Hamas value victimisation and indignity over glory and paradise? What is the symbolic value of an entire people's martyrdom?
Alex B
2023-10-29 06:57:41 +0000 UTCThis situation would not exist if it weren’t for the United States. And Canada. To expect the Israelis and the Palestinians to settle things while the United States keeps pumping money and weapons into Israel is a failure to understand the basics of how actual systems work. The US gives Israel almost four billion dollars a year plus all the weapons they need. The solution: US use this money to resettle the Gazans – in the US. And Canada. The solution -- awareness that the US should end the conditions necessary for this grotesque horror -- and you guys keep the scope too small to lead to anything.
Stephen Nelson Willis
2023-10-29 01:23:03 +0000 UTCGood people have better technlogy. Bombs not bullets.
Stephen Nelson Willis
2023-10-28 23:48:28 +0000 UTCEven kids love good and evil. They are all good. So the game goes.
Stephen Nelson Willis
2023-10-28 23:47:29 +0000 UTCGo read how the south african apatheid ended! Did they also burn babies? Did they slaughter whole families? Did they deliberately tried to kill everyone in sight?
Daniel
2023-10-28 11:54:18 +0000 UTCDo you even understand what an apartheid is?! Do arabs in Israel has less rights? Can't they be elected to the knesset? Don't they hold positions in the high court? So STFU
Daniel
2023-10-28 11:48:03 +0000 UTCWe're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death, The sun has fallen down, and the billboards are all leering, And the flags are all dead at the top of their poles What is there left to do but make art and love? The end of the human will come before the end of man. Victor was drawing an arbitrary line in the chain of events but he was right about one thing; the whole situation is just so sad.
Myles Jeffers
2023-10-27 17:07:03 +0000 UTCI’d add that his tendency to constantly cut off Eric when he is actually trying to approach the complexity of the situation is becoming really tiresome.
Aldo Zetterman
2023-10-27 16:55:31 +0000 UTCGreat episode, loved the disagreements!! Victor I love you don't be scared to to voice your opinions please <3
Kevin Pariseau
2023-10-25 21:20:03 +0000 UTCGreat episode. I like when there are discussion like this but I have to admit the disagreement from Victor was pretty superficial. His "worse" is incredible ambigous for one and the scope of his view seems to limit itself to was has happened in the last couple of weeks, which comes across as a pretty lazy analysis. He insist the situation is very complex, and it is; but please do not use complexity as an excuse to go for the most conservative, status quo response for fear of leaving something out of consideration. Either approach the topic on all its complexity or do not participate in the discussion. If not, it simply comes across as a very narrow point of view that is really difficult to take seriously. I think there is ni denying this recent event in Gaza have had Shockwaves and public opinion repercussions that we have not seen in a good while. No one of us can anticipate the future, but in that sense saying things will inequivocally will get worse is a very condescending take. Worse in which sense? And for whom? It is pretty easy to imagine, as a 1st world academic, that before last week's events gazans were just chilling it out watching Netflix and taking it easy and now they are being carpet bombed. In that sense yes, things are worse. In the end this is also a conflict for recognition, and Palestinan are being recognized, if at least for now, which has a potential for change, no matter how minimal it is. Also the "conflict" has potential to escalate in the region and, while it would be dangerous for all involved, it has a "realist estructuralist" possibility of shifting global power if Iran, Lebanon and even Rusia get involved. Goog episode overall, but I gets harder to listen to Victor the more serious the topic is.
Federico Ivan Compean Revuelta
2023-10-24 15:45:37 +0000 UTCAnother example: https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/10/23/dublin-woman-fired-by-israeli-company-over-anti-israel-social-media-posts/
Fiachra O Raghallaigh
2023-10-24 12:21:34 +0000 UTCThat's just the situation the phrasing arose out of and in which it is most commonly heard or deployed. But, yes, all states are equally artificial even if each state has a unique historical context in which it arose. I actually recall a quasi zionist argument that deployed the artificiality of all states to defend the right of Israel to exist: "Israel has just has much right to exist as Canada" said Emil Fackenheim in the 1980s iirc. —its most common deployment is when describing where some event is taking or where some thing is: "in the place currently known as Edmonton" or in "in the place currently (or commonly) known as Alberta", often because there is a history there where that place used to be known as something else before the settlers came or a name the Indigenous population called one thing while the settlers simultaneously called it something else which later became the common name for that place.
Echoes from Elsewhere
2023-10-24 03:07:23 +0000 UTCI didn't know this was common. Is it only colonial states that are "so-called"? Aren't all states equally artificial?
Plastic Pills
2023-10-24 00:17:09 +0000 UTC[18:00] FYI "so called Canada" or "the land currently known as Canada" is a pretty common framing from Indigenous activism and academics. I believe the idea is to centre colonial, finite and constructed nature of Canada as a political, national, governmental and state institution and entity.
Echoes from Elsewhere
2023-10-23 23:06:19 +0000 UTCChina, Russia, Global South and many others did not condemn Hamas action. In Europe, where I live, even in Germany, public opinion is moving against Israel occupation. My first reaction on Hamas cruelty, especially after you guys on Baudrillard, Luhmann and legitimacy, was Hamas action breaks through the hyperrealty and drives conflict in new and unknown gear. I suspect Victor is working on his status quo job.
Johannex
2023-10-23 22:23:41 +0000 UTCavoid thoses types of bips next time it’s just awful to hear. make them low or smtg? you wanted to advertised the bips ? haha
Atelier Minceur
2023-10-23 22:05:05 +0000 UTCPills, I being the stereotypical Irishman hugely appreciated this. What I find interesting is the amount of censure for unimportant “performative speech acts”. US law firms and investment banks have withdrawn job offers from college students for “pro-Hamas” speech/protest activities (i.e. calling out Israel for killing civilians). Meanwhile in Ireland, notorious shitlord and Web Summit CEO Paddy Cosgrave has been forced to resign for calling out the killing of Palestinian civilians. Google, Amazon, Intel and a bunch of other tech firms pulled out of Web Summit due to his statements. If “performative” speech acts are irrelevant, why are actors in the system deploying financial resources to censure wrongspeech? They must think this is actually important, right?
Fiachra O Raghallaigh
2023-10-23 21:17:56 +0000 UTCWhat was censored and by whom?
Johannex
2023-10-23 21:13:53 +0000 UTCHis worst problem isn't even being wrong, but being wrong in such an overbearing, and often quite snooty, way
Jonas Ludvigsen
2023-10-23 21:04:54 +0000 UTCI really liked this episode
アビ
2023-10-23 20:23:17 +0000 UTC“In the last 40 years Palestine didn’t try to initiate any peaceful solution” They’re occupied under a racist apartheid regime.. they’re not even allowed to protest. Recognise Israel is an apartheid state before theorising about the history and what’s happening
Rick Garwood
2023-10-23 11:57:41 +0000 UTCVictor has great takes for anyone interested in ensuring nothing ever changes and is 100% exemplifying the downplaying of diffuse, everyday, systemic violence of the Israeli war machine and outraging about unmediated, passionate Palestinian violence. The disproportionate Israeli response could change the international response, especially in the Muslim world, and maybe something will change. Victor wouldve told the Vietcong to not even bother, dont have a chance.
Joey McAuley
2023-10-23 01:15:28 +0000 UTCI kinda wish you guys had hashed out your general views before the pod so that we could get into the reading more. Like I get that violence is a significant part but was that the entire conclusion of the text? Cheers
Vic
2023-10-23 00:25:48 +0000 UTC🙃
Plastic Pills
2023-10-22 22:31:38 +0000 UTCThere’s no solution to a violent system like colonialism other than violence. Sorry, but you look at every example and even now after decolonisation in certain countries violence remains.. with extreme apartheid and measures by Israel the resistance and violence will always be extreme.. one begets the next etc
Rick Garwood
2023-10-22 20:13:42 +0000 UTCPalestinians actually had plenty of peaceful political solutions. Yasser Arafat initially proposed a single secular democratic state of Palestine with Jews and Arabs living peacefully side by side. When this proved impossible he recognised Israel’s right to exist and worked towards a two state solution. Again, he failed- this time due in no small part to the rise of Likud.
Fiachra O Raghallaigh
2023-10-22 19:37:37 +0000 UTCI agree. I found myself sort of half agreeing with everyone, or at least being able to see all their points of view,* which holy fuck if that doesn't encapsulate how this whole mess of a situation always ends up feeling... God, I'm a bloody centrist here. *No crypto-normativity implied
Alyn
2023-10-22 10:48:48 +0000 UTCHi Pills
Ashley H
2023-10-22 02:39:18 +0000 UTCWhat's a good source for trying to get for trying to learn the history of Palestine and Israel?
WhaleyVillain
2023-10-22 02:07:46 +0000 UTCSpicy episode but i enjoyed it.
ZedA
2023-10-21 23:50:28 +0000 UTCSeems you are familiar with the historical timeline of this colonial regime, sorry to break it to u
SJ
2023-10-21 22:34:09 +0000 UTCWell, it seems that he understands the situation a bit better than the rest... The fact that Gaza is not under occupation, or the fact that the peaceful solutions never came from the Palestinians.
Daniel
2023-10-21 21:25:40 +0000 UTCYou realize that there's a 4th generation that is born in Israel already?! Where should they go? What's your solution? Just violence?
Daniel
2023-10-21 21:23:40 +0000 UTCI'm sorry but this was so reductive and disappointing. Gaza was occuppied from 1967 to 2005 where Israel dismantled all the Israeli settlements and it was a part of the peace talks that took place in the Oslo Accords. After Gaza was handed over to the Palestinians, Hamas was elected. Hamas never wanted peace and their original charter form 1988 said that they want to destroy Israel and kill all of the jews. In the last 40 years, the Palestinians didn't try to initiate any peaceful solution! So the violence didn't come after they tried all of the options... They didn't try any option. Please read about the history before trying to theorize about what is happening.
Daniel
2023-10-21 21:13:17 +0000 UTCNo hate from me Victor. I think you made some salient points and they came across to me. I sensed you getting worked up either from feeling you were being misunderstood or something else. But I do think the other guys were right as well. We can’t predict the future. So we can’t analyze too much on the basis of “this will make things better /worse”.
Qoheleth
2023-10-21 19:59:56 +0000 UTCI really don’t get the argument that violence will make things worse… how on earth can it get any worse.? Suggesting Israelis have some cultural or religious claim to Palestinians land and now have nowhere to go is a lie.. i think Fanon and Algeria as an example is fair…Netanyahu can go back to his spiritual home of Philadelphia if they really can’t coexist with Palestinians.. for everyone else it’s called cope, cope with the non-stop justified violence that comes with settler colonialism. Take Northern Ireland for an example of colonisers coexisting violently with the colonised Solutiins are possible but only through bloody violence... Also, To threaten the Palestinians with things will always get worse for them, like some kind of Zionist realism, is a slippery slope fallacy imo .. it’s going to get much worse for Israel too
Rick Garwood
2023-10-21 17:23:47 +0000 UTCThey ARE censor beeps 🙃
Plastic Pills
2023-10-21 14:35:24 +0000 UTCJust a heads up: There are weird beeps in the episode that almost sound like censor beeps starting at the 17 minute mark. They pop in randomly.
GolfBaller
2023-10-21 14:24:28 +0000 UTCPolitical history and theory for victor is about pragmatic negotiations only, not sure he understands the role of violent resistance in french/Haitian revolution, but also women’s and civil rights… Reading fanon and benjamin on counter-violence would be interesting here
SJ
2023-10-21 13:43:51 +0000 UTCGreat convo, but the naive liberalism of victor and his a-historical assumptions about counter-violence clearly shows the difference between liberal and radical thought. His strategic ‘it will make things worse’ is both lib and conservative. Think he believes in deliberation and dialogue, even under occupation
SJ
2023-10-21 13:08:19 +0000 UTC
