Bad Day USA

This is the same kind of argument terrorists use for blowing up Americans. "You pay taxes, you support the system, you are implicated." Except that you and I both know that not every American supports foreign intervention (war), much less whoever happens to be sitting in the Whitehouse at any given moment. By your logic, one could argue that everyone who buys Chinese products is a hypocrite and their opinion on China can be ignored. You're welcome to that sort of thinking if it suits you. In my travels, I've found that people are not their governments. And that governments aren't their historical record. People change. Governments change. And countries change. Perhaps it's because they started from such a terrible place (some would argue the same is true for how America was "discovered" and colonized) but the arc of improvement in China over the past 30 years has been a positive one. Things are getting better here. I think it's hard to deny that. Actually, things are getting better everywhere. Despite what we see on TV, people are living longer, happier, healthier, and more productive lives. And the fact that you and I are sitting on the Internet debating the nature of our shared reality... as opposed to searching under rocks for the next tasty grub to eat... well, we don't have it that bad. And things are really not that bad. I appreciate that you reflected on our conversation with your friend. And that you generated some new thoughts from that ;)

American McGee

Bouncing some arguments off a friend has led me to the conclusion that there may be a failure in communication on my part here. The complaint itself is not invalid, everything you said about this entire debacle in the US as a whole was definitely true. It may be best to try and communicate this with a comparison. Donald Trump is pretty well-known as a compulsive liar. If he suddenly came out against lying people wouldn't take him seriously at all. In your case it's not you that'd be the "compulsive liar" but China's government (compulsive liar in this case not meaning literally a compulsive liar but just a generic reference to a trait to keep the comparison as simple as possible to be clear) and you've willingly chosen to associate yourself with them which to many people is an implicit approval of the things they do unless you specify otherwise. I hope that that communicates my point more clearly. And I agree, I do think we're in agreement about more things than not. Our discussion here might've gotten a bit heated but I actually genuinely enjoyed it past my frustration over being unable to articulate my point clearly enough. Also no worries on leaving things here. I'm sure you're pretty busy and have better things to do than arguing with some random person on the internet, lol.

Alice Farmer

RozenKnight, I appreciate that you shared that you have Asbergers but I think some of that might have figured that out based on the style of your post ;) I believe I managed to contain everything you've written here in the hashtag at the end of what I wrote: #conflicttheory Look it up. Very interesting topic. And it does a great job of unpacking the left/right red/blue dichotomy that's become standard in American social, political, and well, all issues. It's an instrument of control. And the more we are aware of it, the less power it has over us. Have fun diving into that! :)

American McGee

Alice, I would really love to sit down with you at a pub (or a teahouse - whatever is preferred) and continue this conversation. Because it's obviously one we both feel quite passionate about. And because I believe we're actually in Violent Agreement(tm) about more things than not. I can't say I agree with the idea that my criticizing the US from a particular geographic location makes my complaints invalid or hypocritical. They were the same complaints I had before I left and they are the same that I maintain today. And, as an American citizen living aboard (and doing business through a US Delaware LLC), I continue to pay US taxes and therefore have a legal right to a voice and representation in the US. Plain fact. I have counterpoints to some new things you've said here but will leave it alone. You can, if you are interested, research and read those things on your own. Bottom line, it's a crazy world out there and it's becoming more and more difficult to know what sources to trust. That's why I now prefer first-hand experience and accounts from people I know and trust. Good luck finding trusted sources of your own!

American McGee

I can't say I agree with your perception, but that may just be due to me seeing it differently and at a different time. What is America, or an American, this is an discussion and/or argument worth having. By the nature of politics today, as your poster announces its locked to a one or the other. These protests/riots show this. The man that died, was honestly a murder, but before the investigation could even roll out, by trump's own order no less, these protests occurred, and then that same night turned to riots, which hurt the very people they claim to protect. (I'll state now in terms of American/America argument this is only an example, sure I am against these riots, but that is due to my feeling they harm their goal than actually accomplish it.) Now the sides are forcefully made, Okay they could split the sides, sure that'd be simple if the Media paid attention and di their job. Protesters argue their points but at night radical groups taint the by day protesters actions. No matter what the media and the democrats aid them in this, refuse to split the two, as they wish to use the protesters to protect the rioters. This ironized the divide. Trump this steels it with his encouragement of action over sitting by and doing nothing.Which he could do like the mayors and governors for the most part did, or throw blame around with no way to actually help the situation and only inflame it. This again makes the mentality of those around them even more isolated. Thus the example there. This is what America has become. Republican VS. Democrat, Conservative VS. 'Liberals' (They are more like the old socialist parties strangely enough not the freedom their name is supposed to mean.) This has been happening before you left America, but this is just a VERY good example of how they made a very grey matter (which honestly had a reasonable answer to try and fix the issue, and likely reveal many others.) Now that divide is what has become of america, but I don't think it is what we were, or what we should've been. As I recall or how I saw it. To be American is to be willing to get ahead with your own hands and feet ignoring the odds. Ellon Musk being a good example. Even as a foreigner he became American, he act, speaks, and even thinks like an American. Another thing I noticed was we tended to be giving when we were able, but forced like we are now. "How dare you not give to me, because am (place race/religion here)!" I heard it before and was even told that, I back then was far more soft. I have Asperger Disorder, so I tend not to understand things like others. I back then didn't understand I was fairly young and didn't understand why I had to give up what I earned because of someones skin color. Not to say am white either, am Hispanic least I look it, but most Hispanics will just call me white, because I don't act or speak like a Mexican. Basically to shorten this, we give because we can and are able to help others grow, not because of guilt or government programs. Everyone had an idea, but superiority clouded the minds of others, and the idea of "making other places 'free" began to infect the minds of the leaders of both parties. So one side saw America as the greatest. Which in certain ways such as the casual freedoms Americans do possess it is, our resources are massive, thus making us rather rich. (course this is all subjective and hardly matters its a point of view, albeit a majority held one.) From that came the 'Pity' ideal, they pity those poor people born lesser than them, and everyone must be guided to greatness, in their own way. I hate the idea of thinking your better than someone simply because of birth, even the dirt has worth more than a person who thinks hes better for the simple act of birth itself. After that came the idea of "We must make them better." This idea has its own flaws, and issues that are apparent, its a conquers ideal and that has obvious issues particularly when you have a nation going back and forth with these ideals. This is what I think we lost sight of, our ultimate goal. It's why Trump's "Make America Great Again" motto hit such a cord with me, and I assume many others. I began to ask myself, "What made us great?" I think back and it was our ability to preserver and push ahead, to adapt as we needed, and worked as hard as we could to be better. To accept others when they accept us and change for the betterment of themselves, and then better for everyone. Anyway sorry for this long thing of what I noticed. I needed this, but I normally wouldn't shove this on someone. I respect your work, it helped me to begin to look out for myself instead of having others make my opinion. in terms of games that freed me form jsut having others decide for me, Alice taught me to grow up doesn't mean to throw away my past or my loves. KOTOR2 Kreia taught me to question even if I believe in something to compare and contrast, because without it, what's the point? Anyway I babbled on long enough, thank you for your work, and I hope you have a wonderful time. PS I hope this isn't taken in the wrong way, I just wanted to express to someone I felt i respected and has different views than me. (I didn't realize how long I made this, sorry...)

RozenKnight

You seem to misunderstand my complaints as a defense of the US. They're not at all. I agree with you both on George Floyd as well as the Iraq war. As for my claim that the Chinese government is one of the worst in the world, I'd trust the numerous global sources of information over one person's individual anecdotes. Those anecdotes may be true in your particular case but that does not mean they hold up across China as a whole. China is actively suppressing two regions who don't want them oppressing them, one of which has been going on since before I was even born. On top of that they're horrifically mistreating one of their own minorities in the west. For your bits about the Chinese police, I was aware of a fair bit of that at least to a point. But those cases are massively overshadowed by the other things I've mentioned though. On the Hong Kong bit, I'm not suggesting to allow Hong Kong to secede (though I'd be in support of that regardless of it being Hong Kong or a US state, if their citizens want to secede then that should be allowed) so much as China trying to undermine the system that has been in place since 1997. Which from what I understand is actually undermining China as a whole to begin with. Since 1997 Hong Kong has served as a sort of buffer between China and the rest of the world but China's actions there have made many nations start reconsidering that function. That won't benefit anyone and especially not Hong Kong or China. My biggest point with my complaints though is simply that it feels inconsistent at best or hypocritical at worst that you'd call out the US when China is so guilty of things just as bad or even worse in some cases. You won't see me excusing or defending the US government over the way it acts. You'll see me actively condemning them for their actions because they're wrong and as my home nation I expect far better from them. I hope I've managed to communicate my point properly this time since it seems I didn't do an adequate job before.

Alice Farmer

Alice, In the run-up to the Invasion of Iraq which ultimately killed ~250,000 innocent civilians the US (via its intelligence agencies) engaged in a disinformation campaign designed to sway public opinion against the people and government of that country. Think about that when you state that China "has one of the worst governments in the world" - and ask yourself upon what basis you make that claim. I said I wasn't here to defend China but I think you might be interested in knowing a few facts about Chinese police. First, I've never seen one carrying a gun. And except in a few very rare exceptions, Chinese police do not carry guns. They do not engage in "high-speed pursuits" of criminals. There is literally no such thing as being "pulled over" by the police in China. And so no one ever dies as a result of police chases. And Chinese police are trained in the de-escalation of confrontations with citizens... to the point that I've seen entire crowds surround a few Shanghai police, shout at them, and shame them into backing off and just walking away from a situation. I often see people argue (loudly and aggressively) their way out of traffic tickets. Would you say that's better or worse than the system you know? I ask you: Were you aware of any of this before you made your statements? Please be honest about your answer. Because if the only thing on which you're basing your statements are the bits of information fed to you regarding the situation in Hong Kong... then I recommend you expand your sources of information on the topic. Hong Kong is a difficult topic. The British annexed the island after the First Opium War ended. It was a colony and was handed back to China (legally and completely) in 1997. Hong Kong is, for better or worse, a legal part of China. And its de facto constitution contains provisions to address issues with sedition... internal or external forces attempting to "remove" Hong Kong as an extension of China. These same laws exist in countries like the US - imagine Canada trying to claim Alaska, for example. In any case, it's worth researching and hearing the story from multiple angles. None of my Hong Kong friends (I lived there for two years) support the protests or the foreign intervention in Hong Kong's internal affairs. Anyway... I've lived in and traveled to many, many places in the world. And while it's by no means a perfect country, it does actually treat its people quite well. They have socialized medicine, incredibly strong labor law protection for workers, a robust housing and social security system, and a socialist government that actually builds infrastructure and support system geared towards a better life for everyone who lives here. They do not engage in foreign wars and they don't run a for-profit prison system. I'll say it again: It's not a perfect country. But it is also not the nightmare dystopian evil place that someone is trying to convince you that it is. Guess you'll have to decide... who are you going to trust on this kind of thing?

American McGee

It's less that you don't get to have an opinion than that your opinion rings hollow when China has one of the worst governments in the world when it comes to treating people properly and is guilty of far worse than what the US is currently doing. (Which is saying a lot because the bullshit the US government is doing currently is completely unacceptable.) And I'd consider many EU states to be in a lot better shape than the US. They may not be as wealthy as the US but they tend to treat their people a lot better in general. Canada, while not perfect itself (most notably in their treatment of Native Americans, though the US is no better there itself), would also qualify. Really though, my point just boils down to condemning the US for this incident of police brutality, or even the absurd history they have of police brutality, doesn't carry much weight to me in the face of having left the country for a nation that has a worse track record. Notably a specific incident whose anniversary is coming up fairly soon combined with their recent handling of things in Hong Kong which is much worse than the police in a lot of areas of the US are handling things.

Alice Farmer

Are you suggesting I don't get to have an opinion on the US since I no longer live there? And what country in the world is "better" than the US? I'd like to know where that place is located!

American McGee

I'd like to agree with everything you said about the US but honestly this rings really hollow coming from someone who abandoned the US for a worse country rather than an actually better one.

Alice Farmer

I agree with everyone above! Very well said!

Sarah McKeegan

It is getting to be scary over here. Last night I was stunned to see a political ad from Bob Hamilton running for senate in KS. He said “China has been taking our jobs for years and now they are taking our lives...I know the media will say that’s racist” My jaw dropped.... but I mean our president has said and done worse. All this hate is just sad and people are agreeing with this bullshit. Are we living in the 50s or 2020. I’m not sure anymore... I think you made a good choice getting out when you did. I keep waiting for a pointless war to start any time. Stay safe and hope we can do the same! PS. Haven’t really heard anymore news about the virus since the protests have started. Curious where this is all going and what the end of the year will look like.

Stay safe American. That's a sentiment that I think the whole world can share right now.

Anna Lepper

Mr McGee, well done sir, well done, epically worded, well thought out and it sends just the right message, I applaud you. I would also add that you comment "this is not black vs. white or red vs blue... it's You The People vs. The System." Is exactly how everyone should be looking at the issue.

Raziel317

Personally, I think everyone involved just needs the productive work and R&R which the lockdowns have prevented them from getting for months. In any case, it seems like the lockdowns are magically over now. And it ended with a BANG rather than a whimper. It's definite cause to celebrate. Lets get back to work :)

American McGee for President 2024

Wendy Jaa

Couldn't have said it any better, you stay safe as well. The world can be a FUN place

Kreiger Liddle

What a beautifully simple and well worded statement.