Black Hole Wonderland

I am with you on the threat of Alice killings herself. Also, watching Child Alice making shadow puppets would be cute!

Nicholas Brokaw

I do still wonder if the suicide element should still be part of the story. I for one feel like it could make for a strong narrative point, and grabs my attention more than Alice killing Radcliffe.

Nicholas Brokaw

Both ideas are great and I like a lot of the ideas you guys have come up with as well!

Sarah McKeegan

I like both ideas. It's fantastic!

I’m also happy that you are turning away from the idea of attempted suicide or self harm. I can see her self destructing or self medicating to either enter or get deeper into Wonderland but I’m worried that overtly showing it or mentioning it sympathetically(/mechanically) might be triggering for some players; especially those who want to play because they can relate to or empathize with her trauma (such as some users mentioned in stream). I’m also worried that there will be backlash as it might not fit the sociopolitical climate right now. Cutting yourself is either a last resort to end the pain or a deterrence for a different pain (physical vs emotional; which London Alice already has in Wonderland). I think the original idea that circled around was to have her cut herself but I liked the idea that she uses her knife/blade to protect her body from pain and corruption, not to cause herself harm; and in this case Bumby is right, the knife isn’t “cleansing”. She could be forced by the narrative, possibly neuropsychopharmacologically, psychotropically or therapeutically (like in A:RM or through shock therapy) as a way to enter deeper into Wonder/Umbraland.

I like the idea of black holes as gateways. You could use black mirrors if you like the looking glass motif, since Alice might not know about Black Holes but she might know about Black Mirrors/Claude Glass or Scrying Mirrors or at the very least know the effects they create. Claude glass is also convex so you can do trippy stuff with perspectives (similar to how black holes bend light or the warped bending that some of the art pieces already include) and it literally darkens what you are looking at. Also, from a psychological standpoint (yay, I’m using my degree for once) it works because it would highlight the effect that Bumby’s taint had on Alice, as his taint/tar literally adds a blackened coating over how she enters wonderland (looking glass), symbolizing her change from the unbesmirched crystal clarity of innocence (reflecting all light) to the grime and shadows of stark reality (absorbing or blocking the light and changing how she sees the world). It would also be an interesting way to show what Shalice sees from her mirror when she navigates Wonderland. Maybe the blackened coating of the mirror is acting like a lens filter when Alice passes into Umbraland. I also like that black mirrors are typically used by turning your back to your subject and only viewing it through a distorted perspective (or mirror) which shows Shalice’s dissolution and rejection i.e. turning her back on the bright innocence of Wonderland. Alternatively, there is also the Scrying Black Mirror which is used spiritually to communicate between past, present and future. I think visually it might be interesting to have a moment where Shalice casts Alice completely in darkness and she becomes overwhelmed up until Child Alice comes forward and her yellow dress creates a glow that pushes the shadows back. Also, it might be a way to utilize the concave reflective mirrors on Child Alice's yellow dress. She might also be able to purify the blackened mirrors.

This is amazing, Omri always comes up with excellent ideas. I think the mimic aspect of the Shadow reflects on how Shadow Alice has had to try and imitate the expected behavior of Child Alice, she is the coping mechanism that allows her to go through AMA and AMR but The Shadow alone would not have been seen by the other citizens of Wonderland as Alice and therefore she would not have been recognized by herself. The Cheshire cat remarks how Alice has "Picked up a bit of an attitude" but immediately points out the core of Alice's personality: Curiosity. The Shadow tries to protect Alice by sealing all of her vulnerabilities with darkness but tries to imitate the parts of Alice that made her happy, the parts that make her who she is. I think that's why we have a Shadow Alice and not a shapeless nihilistic creature.

While I understand the idea of a mimic feature, shadows also tend to conceal, so it’s kind of like Shadow Wonderland is a realm of everything you’ve revealed, but still in shadow because there’s not enough “light”. Shadow Wonderland is the shadows of everything but warped and larger, because the smaller the source of light, the larger the shadows. If you have multiple dying/flickering sources of light, the shadows of everything would be constantly in flux. This would be spooky and good for sudden enemy battles/fake outs (because a frightened child especially will see monsters out of moving shadows, and adult Alice is letting the shadows of her past hurt her the longer she is without her inner child). Shadows exaggerate shapes, sizes and distances, so I feel like you could do cool things with the game audio and visuals in making things sound distant and muffled the further the player walks into the shadows and make things look like one thing far away and it be another when you reach what’s casting the shadow. It also plays into how shadow shields Alice because it softens the world into a hazy lull to help stop the overload on your senses (Also if adult Alice is suffocating), and though this would help adult Alice though symbolize her growing depression/negativity/impending death, it would scare child Alice and keep her blind and deaf to what is really happening. It’d be really cool if (maybe when idle?) at the start of the level you hear whispers of what Bumby and Radcliffe have said to/near Alice, but indistinct until the end of the level, as she was probably too young/comatose to grasp the importance of what was being said, but now she is nearing adult Alice and her curiosity allows her to pay attention when prior her shock kept her deaf and blind. You could actually have a really cute moment where child Alice can watch a shadow play, or maybe even make shadow puppets with her hand as an idle animation in this Shadow Wonderland 😊 The black holes as portals is a brilliant idea, and shows child Alice’s trust as you can’t see into a black hole. A possible design could be that child Alice is essentially ushering the darkness back into a concentrated mass, that at the end collapses in on itself to become the portal? And visually, it could go a few ways. One idea is child Alice painting a picture on a board near the black hole to signify where it goes (since you can’t see through black holes). Otherwise, with artistic license, the star dust and light being sucked in reflect an image of the area it leads to (perhaps the light of child Alice helps make this possible)? I personally like the idea of the threat of adult Alice killing herself as it creates a sense of urgency, though I understand it’s a heavy topic.

IM SO GLAD THAT MY NAMING OF THE SHADOW WONDERLAND WAS SO POPULAR!!! so thank you for that everyone! I also really love the idea of black holes. I think the idea that Umbraland is a mimic of all of the places Alice visited in her previous arrivals in wonderland works really well! I agree with LD that I'd like to see less Ruin like tentacles and more things simply cast in shadow and child Alice in spotlight. Perhaps we can draw more inspirations from images of space and planets and nebulae etc.. because I picture this like its in a vast and cold space.. I do think that doing away with the suicide plot line is a safe option? I think instead we should focus on the fear that Alice herself may become apathetic towards others and uncaring of her own wellbeing and if the children are at stake then Alice risks losing everything she had been fighting for. Bumby and her PTSD will have one out and her mind would be filled with cold black holes with no emotion. That would also be a huge difference from the other games. Because Child Alice would be trying to make Adult Alice care again. Instead of falling into a hole of depression that she may never be able to crawl back out of. That could eventually lead to something LIKE suicide. But I don't think Suicide has to be said explicitly but perhaps more implied then anything?

I like both ideas. The imagery of black holes is more unique than the shadowland idea.

Stephanie Groth

I’m well aware of that, in normal context but there is a lot of lore about mirrors that do in fact mimic, and hold the darker side of things, etc. and even mirror trying to take over and replace the real version with themselves .

A shadow isn’t so much a mirror. A mirror reflects, but a shadow mimics.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

Ya know after doing a little searching I think naming it something to do with a mirror or the process of making a mirror would be fitting. Something like Pierland or Silverland, maybe even realm rather then land so Silver Realm?

I am curious about that last bit. American hasn’t been definitive about it, but when last he spoke he seemed to indicate that element was no longer really at the forefront of the story.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

"Umbraland" cast in shadows, but not necessarily in ruin, does help distinguish it visually and thematically from the Ruin of "AMR". Giving it a "cold" appearance would further contrast from the "heat" of the Train, and tie back to the ash/snow concepts as well. A Black Hole's Event Horizon as the ultimate "point of no return" can also fit into the narrative idea of losing one's sense of self and suicide as a danger (should that story element still be involved).

I agree with Omri that shadow doesn't consume. That's why I would like to see a version of this without the Ruin-like tendrils. The way I see the Shadow Wonderland, (or Umbraland, definitely gonna champion that name) is that it is like a dark wonky version of Wonderland. Remember Grimm? The way I see it is that Shadow Alice’s Wonderland has had Grim come in and buttstomp away. Like a greyscale version with German expressionist angles and surreal architecture, like everything has been twisted and had all the color taken out. Really like the fact that the “light” source is actually a black hole. That's an inspired choice.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’