Attitudes Towards Self-Murder

I thought reunification was an interesting key word here tbqh - when I think about it in the context of Alice and her history, and given her mental health, it could also become this reunification through fire, like a really interesting poetic rejoining in her mind in order to feel some semblance of closeness to her family again. Just my 2c because that really stuck out to me!

sldtr

Why do we act like these are things that don’t happen? Why should we hide from these kinds of things? It’s not making fun of or putting it down it’s bringing it to light. We have games where we are soldiers and in war and Murder people why not this? Isn’t all touchy? It’s only touchy cause we as a society have made it so. Go for it!!

Sarah McKeegan

“The wounds are already there Alice... they can’t be stitched up like your rabbit...” An interesting concept balanced on a knife’s edge. I for one love this particular concept. As an musician, I often compose pieces about touchy subjects because I feel there is a need to discuss the darkness of the human psyche in order to help the audience empathize what someone with depression/anxiety/suicidal thoughts/etc. think about often.

SuperShadow767

I thought it would be interesting if Alice’s suicide was actually symbolism for her “killing” the part of her self that part of herself that’s holding on to these negative emotions. Of course with trauma and mental health the processes of healing and recovery are never instantaneous and require hard work but perhaps the “suicide” could be her catalyst toward the road of her inner healing. Also I think the fire could maybe be used as symbolism for her personal transformation, a phoenix out of the ashes.

As long as you legally put a disclaimer somewhere for the suicide idea, as in we do not condone or encourage suicide, you’ll be fine. The drink me idea is not as appealing as the bleeding out idea. Poison is more finite than bleeding, in my opinion. Plus I agree with the drink me as a form of transformation not death.

Had an idea for how Alice might handle the 'Bumby is dead and no one runs the orphanage now" thing. Maybe she somehow frames bumby's death/disappearance as something unrelated to her. I'm not really sure how that'd work. The main idea I have is maybe someone else (with more scruples hopefully) takes over the orphanage. Then Alice would be able to work towards a small home for herself because the kids are more cared for. Though all those kids are undoubtedly super traumatized as well, but I don't think Alice would be able to do much about that.

RedBreloom

Fleshing this out will be tricky, no doubt, but I have liked this idea. I played AMA in 2005 and have been obsessed with dark fairy tales my whole life. Alice falling into despair and trying to end her life is right in line with everything so far. I really like the smoke idea. It can be done visually in so many ways that it won't be jarring to people who may not be expecting it. Good luck at the meeting! You are a genius and I'm so glad to be contributing to your works.

Stephanie Groth

btw, I think it would be better if Bumby's children are not saved. What do we know about his death ? One of his patient killed him, so his cure isn't effective. Worse : it's dangerous. What do you do with dangerous children ? Put'em to an asylum with "special treatment". Don't be a fool like Bumby, because the fool is now dead. Everything should sucks. Alice's efforts should be completely pointless. What about a though like "I ruined everything again, maybe they would had a better life as sexual pets" ?.

Koukin

Poison seemq unconvenient to Alice, because she's full of violent emotions. By personnal experience (I went throught it and I'm now completely curred, physically and mentally), wrist is more appropriate. What about replacing the blood by butterflies, and seeing "the act" only by shadows ? The shadow of a poor candle (fire, destructive, but also something you use in order to "forge" a new beginning. She can heating up the knife with the flame : it's stupid, but for someone who wants to die, it makes perfect sense, ans can increse the chances of success) in a small, lonely room ? We see Alice, we see the room, the candle, then the knife. She grabs it, there is flashs, confusions with the Wonderland Alice (a ruined Wonderland Alice ?) and the knife confused with the vorpal Blade. Then, we only see "the act" with shadow in the wall. Then, emerges colourfull butterflies from the wound (we'll never see the arm bleeding). Then, we see Alice lying down in the ground, in her back, watching these butterflies in the air. Because "after all this misery, you're still living throught your Wonderland ? How stupid...". So, even if the butterflies are "romantizing" the situation, if the misery of her life is well rended and because of Alice saying "it's stupid", everyone would be aware : suicide is never, never, never, and never a good thing. Romeo and Juliette were terribly wrong.

Koukin

I also have a question about what happens once Alice "wakes up" at the end. How do we/she KNOW she has fully saved herself and won't loop back into this situation even if she escapes her suicide attempt. WHAT IF she finds some object of special meaning (like a pocket watch- maybe real world Alice finds it inside a plush bunny or even in her container of coal) that she takes to mean she has time. Time to deal. Time to heal. Time to live.

I like and appreciate all the thought going into this. It is something the game has touched on, so it makes sense. The smoke sounds like a solid idea I agree that drink me poison is NOT the way to go, though it could be argued that her reality is already fuzzy and she takes it hoping it would help ...on that note would be careful with that ending you mention. You don't want to imply that "drinking" is a solution in EITHER case....

Here’s my take: inspired by Lucky Dragon but a different angle. I think Wonderland has always come to Alice’s aid in one way or another, so I think It’d still be present in her mind. But perhaps she doesn’t want to think of it anymore, she feels disillusioned and abandoned by it and everything she tied into it. Her drive, determination, the power to get going on. Because even after the battles are done and the day is saved there is no magic bullet. And it just makes her think: ‘It managed to help me get so far and overcome so much… But was it worth it? I have nothing now.” Because in her view it can’t magic up any real happiness or lost family. It can’t help her feel less empty and cold sitting alone in her small home in London. She fought all this way to get into what she thought would be safer… She beat every dragon and crashed the infernal train and tried to get the children to a better home. She did everything she felt was right. And now she just feels even more lost and alone. Her Wonderland acting as a cold reminder that “it all really worked wonderfully, until it didn’t”. So she’d try to drown out the thoughts related to it. She’d think about how she’s ‘fine’ now, she doesn’t need something that’ll just bring her more pain that she can’t fix. But even amidst the overwhelming misery and PTSD, Wonderland will reach out again when she needs it most. So maybe she does try to kill herself with smoke inhalation. But as she stares into the fire’s coals with the smoke curling up, the air thick and hazy, she thinks she sees something odd. She starts to hallucinate. The embers spark and burn up in her vision and she sees a child. Perhaps it will be hard to make out who it is but Alice will be startled out of her stupor. She holds onto the idea that “There could be another person worth saving”. And once that has her attention she sees that it’s herself. Younger, before the fire, trapped in a snowglobe she remembers sitting on the mantle of her home. So she airs the room out and tries to figure out how to get there. Even if she feels left out in the cold from the world where she had a purpose, she thinks maybe there’s a chance she can still set something right. But she quickly realizes she’s totally burnt out, exhausted. She has a little bit of the will left but none of the way. She can’t reach this child self directly. But she sees a snowglobe on the mantle of the fireplace, fire still burning, tendrils curling around it. But tamer for now. Alice picks up the Vorpal Blade and looks at the snowglobe. This might be her last chance before she gives up, she has to make it count. So she stabs her knife into it and says “Well, this is our last chance. Save us, Alice”

RedBreloom

First off, I believe you're on the right track. Suicide to me sounds very much like something Alice would succumb to. Or you can think of it this way.. When Robin Williams died, someone told me "he died of depression". Suicide, like many things is hardly black and white. I also know from experience the painful curiosity factor... When you're lying in bed in mental pain, and all you can think is " I wonder what it would feel like if I stabbed myself repeatedly in the gut... Surely not as bad as this". I say stick with it. Secondly the actual method... Though I love the poetic justice idea of it being her blade, I don't think its right, because her "varpol blade" isn't real. I suppose this could be fixed by giving her a knife and showing it "glitching"in her mind between a letter opener and her blade, adding an element of insane snapping (that would work I think). However the fire idea does more appropriate for 2 reasons: 1- Alice pain still come from guilt that she lived. It makes sense that she would want to "suffer"as her family did, perhaps with the words of the Jabberwocky from their battle in AMA repeating in her head. 2- simply her "death"will be slower, giving child Alice more time to save her.. And in turn Alice time to save herself. Hope this is helpful, keep up the great work.

Tal'Ki

This is definitely a sensitive topic but not one the game hasn't already touched on. As someone who has experienced suicide twice with family members I can say personally this topic does not offend me or scare me away, but that is just me. With that said, what about having Alice realize she needs to save herself by a last resort type of attempt. She realizes in brief times of clarity that something is still kind of wrong or damaged inside of her. The only way she can fix this is to have the child version of herself be her savior in Wonderland. She ends up determining that taking herself to the point of death is the only way to get back to Wonderland and that smoke inhalation would be the way to get there. It would put her to sleep without any extreme damage to her body. She is also aware of the consequences should this not work. Maybe this kind of set up would give her a kind of control of the situation. Any way the story line is set up if she attempts suicide it is going to trigger some people, so I agree with Renee Disney's statement in a previous comment on this thread, "the game tackles so many other horrors and dark moments, so why pullback now?"

The suicide idea to start with sounds intriguing. With a character like Alice who has severe PTSD sounds very relatable to ppl who actually have it in real life. For her going from being extremely vulnerable and at the edge is the perfect hero development. Going from rock bottom and turning into something stronger sounds like a great idea to use. The inner child is a very good idea. The thing that Adult Alice needs is what she fears the most: her child self. What if the final boss could be Adult Alice herself? Maybe Child Alice could team up with the queen of hearts at the very end in order to take Adult Alice down In order for Child Alice to help Her finally heal. Good stuff! I think you’re on to something great AM!

I am not the biggest fan of the idea ( i don't wanna see how she is trying to kill herself in that age especially and stuff.. even tho i know a lot of people are okay with that (?!)) plus i think they would put the game into the USK 18 area, because it's getting more and more into a darker- place (violent+dark and threatening atmosphere + the rest in the game you know)...that's how i see it. At the end it is (of course) up to you but i would want the game to still be USK 16 without explaining why my kids can't play with me again....

Jessi St.

I actually really liked the idea of the Vorpal blade like instrument and her cutting herself. I think the blade has a lot of meaning with it injuring her in the real world, but she uses it to defeat and save herself in Wonderland. I think it would even carry enough weight if she cut herself by accident and then just became tangles in a do-not-care mentality as the blood flows. That said, suicide attempts are definitely in her character as I have understood it and I never felt it was romanticized because ultimately we are all fighting to have her overcome and persevere. The game tackles so many other horrors and dark moments, so why pull back now?

Damn, I never dodged so much text in my life. Seems promising so far. I am not sure the story goes, but I genuinely wish we could go to the real world in Alice rather than staying in hear wonderland. That part in AMR was very fun and amazing when it came to progress in the game.

Saleh Abu-Rashid

100% agree!

I personally don't know how the story should or even could be told. However, I do have a lot of faith in you as a writer and a creator. I truly feel like you could do this and present this in a way that is acceptable and not romanticized. You've always handled controversial topics in your games in a respectable manner and I feel like this will be approached in much the same way.

I like the idea of suicide attempt. However I don’t think it needs to go through. I imagine this: It’s night. We’re in a house. As the camera moves through a corridor, we hear Alice’s loud and shaky breaths coming from a room up ahead. The camera slowly enters the room through a door, revealing Alice on her knees, holding a knife (looking like Vorpal Blade) to her wrist. She slowly puts the knife closer, closer, breathing faster, her hands are shaking... Then with a cry she throws the knife away, covers her face and breaks down crying. “I can’t do it... I can’t... WHY CAN’T I DO IT?!” As she ask this, we see Child Alice’s shadow standing behind her knelt crying form, implying that she is the reason. Alice slowly gets up and stumbles over to her bed, sits down on it and slouches. “I... I can’t go on like this... I can’t go on like THIS! This will keep happening... I...” She looks up, at the unlit fireplace, at the snowglobe standing atop of it. She whispers: “somebody... save me...” Suddenly, a lone snowflake falls, followed by more snowflakes. Alice doesn’t react to it. The room then begins to freeze over, the frost coming from Alice, creeping up the walls and ceiling, and then the camera freezes over, but we see a light, as if there’s a flame dancing behind the ice And then it transitions into the opening animatic you posted earlier.

Karolina Belomestnova

Ina you are so on point. 💜

I like that idea alot. As it's less suicide persay and more giving up. She can save herself but she doesnt see the point. Keeps the smoke and fire and deals with the issues mentioned nicely while still keeping the tone and the stakes

Jessica Chubb

First of, I am extremely flattered that you used my comment in this post! That means a lot <3 Secondly, and I'm aware that this comment might make me hugely unpopular, but I'm guessing most people that are uncomfortable with suicide in Asylum, has less to do with weither it fits in to our narrative, and more to do with them being uncomfortable with the subject in general. Yes, it is an uncomfortable subject, but does that mean we shouldn't talk about it? Secondly, and more importantly to me, it is realistic and fits all too well with Alices' story, and once again, the whole "what comes after"-part of trauma is so rarely depicted in.. Well any kind of way. I'm not a fan of the "drink me"-potion for suicide, or the slitting of the wrists. The show "13 Reasons why" originally made a very vivid depiction of someone doing exactly that, and later were forced to change it. I watched the original scene and it was thoroughly uncomfortable to watch, it genuinely made me feel sick to my stomach. I do not think it romanticized it at all(!), because they made it so blunt and *brutally* honest. While the entire season was a build up to that moment, and could have been considered one long suicide romance fantasy, the brutality of the actual suicide scene, with no accompanying music as I recall or artistic cutting of the scene, just showed that there is absolutely nothing romantic about it. I'm getting off track here, but my point is, there are ways to show suicide without romanticizing it, it's all in how you do it. For our story, I like the idea of the fire and smoke the best. I won't go in to too much detail, but with the smoke it has feel of wanting to go to sleep and not wake up again, because she can't face this world anymore, an exit strategy, a way to get out on her own terms, rather than a wish for death. Death can be easily romanticized, but where's the romance in apathy? The reunification of Adult Alice and Child Alice also makes a lot of sense to me. After spending +20 odd years in extreme conditions, I've ended up going back to my own childhood to find joy and learn how to be happy again. It wasn't a conscious decision, but I've realized that the things that I do enjoy, that inspire me and makes it all worth it, are the things I enjoyed as a kid, before everything got messed up and there was no time for leisure. I think we are all born with the ability to love, trust and be happy, it is our circumstances that teaches us that we shouldn't. So it makes sense to go back to our childhood to reconnect with those abilities again. Continuing to build our personalities and life is easier if we take the few good things we do actually have, rather than starting all over from nothing. It's important that we find something within ourselves that makes it worth it, that despite everything Alice went through, she still actually has the ability to love, to trust and to find joy in her adventures. It has nothing to do with anybody else or with everything that's happened to her, this is something that can't be taken away from her ever again, because she's older, wiser and stronger now, she can and will defend this, if it is ever threaten again.

I think it is a good idea that fits well with Alice and the story as it is not killing her its more metaphorical. She is a traumatised girl and this is often debated if not acted upon. I love the idea of her getting out by growing out of it. The games have been great so I trust your vision and i believe the difficult subjects are what makes something stand out. Silent Hill 2 remains my favourite game ever and it deald with many dark subjects in a really subtle but shocking way

I don't care how shocking or gorey/gory? the beginning or the entire game is, if it serves the purpose and it fits in the game I'm all for it, I would even love to see the game taking a "I don't give a f***" route and going all crazy! lol But that's just me, I love games that don't shy back of controversy. But I fully understand that this is probably not the goal of this game, so take the approach that fits best and I'm happy with whatever the final solution will be. :)

St. Thomas

I was one of the people who was concerned that Alice attempting to kill herself might idealize the concept of attempted suicide as a means of achieving introspection and healing. However, I do agree that it would be fitting with the narrative, and Alice's character. And it does absolutely raise the stakes, and provide motivation for both Alice and the player to be invested in the mission of the game. Plus, I agree that we shouldn't shy away from these topics. I don't see the difference between that and telling someone who faces the same struggles to pretend like they don't. Trauma, PTSD, depression, etc. are things that countless numbers of individuals deal with on a daily basis. We would be doing them a disservice, I think, by shying away from showing/talking about these kinds of things, and doing Alice a disservice by changing or avoiding something that is part of her life, her character, and her narrative just because it may be triggering or uncomfortable. I do think that her attempting to take her own life via smoke inhalation is the best way to go, IMO. My concern with slitting her wrists in the tub would be that this is something that she needs to be able to come back from, and that may be something she isn't able to come back from or help herself out of when she comes to. (Plus, since I am an overthinker, I feel like that might set her up for a vicious cycle. If she sought medical treatment for her wounds after [which you would think she would need to, if the injuries were serious enough to threaten her life], you would think that that might lead to questions and a psychiatric evaluation, and possibly being referred to a psych hospital or treatment program, but if being in that kind of setting might trigger her, that could set off a vicious cycle rather than see her end the game on a more optimistic note. Again, that's me overthinking way past the end of the game, but 🤷‍♀️). However, I could see her coming to and rushing to a window or otherwise just exiting the room to escape the smoke and being able to recover from that a little easier than slitting her wrists. All I know, with absolute certainty, is that if anyone can tackle something like this and do it well, it's you. I have faith that whatever decisions you make will be the right ones.

To be completely honest, I'm not entirely on board with the idea still (but that's just because I'm not very comfortable with the topic in the first place). You're right it's a difficult topic that should be threaded carefully. I definitely like the fire idea better, although I'm not sure how that would work. Wouldn't she be afraid to handle fire in the first place, even if it's for a stove? Especially to use it for this reason? Or is that just me overthinking it? Maybe the game could be started that manoeuvres Alice into a situation where she dies if she doesn't act (which is either outside of her control or an accident). For example a building collapsed and Alice needs to get her act together to get out of the rubble but after everything she wants to give up, after which she transitions to wonderland. Although I dunno if that would work either. Anyway I'm curious to see where this goes regardless. It seems like there's good thought being put into this.

I, too, like the idea of fire/smoke being the means by which Alice returns to Wonderland. Fire is what took her parents and home in the first game. Smoke took her sister. It feels to me like using that for the final(?) game would tie it all together nicely. Regarding the sensitive nature of self-murder: what if it's not really intentional at first? What I mean is, what if Alice starts a fire in the fireplace, but something is blocking the chimney? Sitting down in a chair, she notices smoke beginning to fill the room. Rather than open the windows or put the fire out, Alice just keeps sitting there contemplating whether it's really worth it. She eventually gets up, but it's never elaborated on whether she was going to try to save herself or not and we never get a chance to see because she passes out before she can do anything else.

Both. I think they're trying to drum up multiple avenues for Alice content that'll help attract companies. More potential cash flows from different platforms could make whatever company more confident in investing in the project as a whole/as a game. Also cos it'd be pretty cool too.

RedBreloom

I like this idea a lot tbh. And it does sidestep some of the other issues while still being rather meaningfully Alice. It'd make sense for her character too because she was willing to fight against a dragon like bumby for those orphans' sakes. And she'd think about 'how can i save her' because Older Alice is used to that role. She'd quickly realize that she doesn't really have energy or ideas that could help though. But then thinks, after seeing this Younger Alice, that maybe it can go the other way around. "maybe she can save me" . Also really like the stabbing the snow globe idea for the plot kick off. and how it's worded for the 'save us, Alice'.

RedBreloom

I'm very intrigued by this, if there ever was a character that can pull off suicide elegantly as part of the storyline, it's Alice. It just seems appropriate to me.

I initially despised this idea, but I'm actually warming up to it. I'm realizing now after reading Ina's comment that I actually feel the same way. I think if we're careful about how it's represented, we can do it.

Wendy Jaa

So two big problems I have with this: One being, when you have a story that aims to tackle the subject of suicide in a respectful way, you don’t show the suicide, certainly not a graphic and realistic depiction of it. And the other being, this has to be something that Alice could realistically come back from.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

I really like the idea of fire being involved, and I think it could be done in a beautiful way. I can see Alice’s face lit up as she strokes the embers. And while doing so we can see her emotions through her face. But in this, it’s almost an androgynous reaction. Almost like she’s dissociating and not really all there. So while the room starts to fill with smoke, she slowly drifts to wonderland. And with this, it’s up to the player interpretation of whether this was intentional on Alice’s part, or a sign of her mental deterioration and attempted suicide. To me, graphically showing her cutting her wrists would be too much for a lot of people. The smoke not only makes sense canonically, but also leaves room for interpretation for the player/audience. I can picture this moment vividly with her face close up with the fire reflecting in her eyes and the light radiating from the fire. Regardless, I believe in you and this project and I know whatever you decide will be done gracefully ❤️

Trigger Warning: In dealing with suicide in a way that fits the best for Alice, would be slitting wrists in a bathtub. With that you can use all three aspects of ways to tie the games together. Knife of course for the wrists, the bath (water which connects with her tears that are involved with the drink me bottles). Finally fire. In the movie "The Rules of Attraction" a character slits their wrist in a tube with candles around them. I can see the same setting, Alice with candles around the tube, she puts the knife in and is shocked knocking over one, so she is bleeding, drowning and her house is about to catch fire. Maybe this is overkill with the narrative bat, but like you said she has tried and would most likely planned out the best way to get it done the correct way (down the road not across the street). If I wanted to make sure I was 100% dead, slit wrists in a warm bath to help draw the blood out, with candles that will turn the place I was living in to ash to cover up my life would be the solution (during that era).

Morgan LeFay Dethen

I apologize for the grammatical errors. I’d go back and fix them but as we know Patreon is funny with that sometimes. Anyway, I think you get the idea. Suicide is still on the table for Alice if this long shot idea of hers doesn’t work. It doesn’t decrease the stakes, but it’s more interesting with this being something that was deliberately started by adult Alice rather than being accidentally triggered by her. This would fix the problem you have with not wanting to romanticize suicide too. Let me know what you think.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

So my big problem with it has always been using suicide as the catalyst for the beginning of the journey young Alice. Ultimately, that makes the attempted suicide the thing that fixes her. You can’t do that. But, you don’t have to excise suicide from the game’s story. Here’s my quick version of the opening: Alice is alone in her room, with pictures of family and drawings of Wonderland characters surrounding her. She’s sitting in a chair in front of a fire place, looking miserable. She picks up a framed photo of her and her family and lets out a long sigh. She gets up and closes the door and the windows before closing the fireplace floo. Then, she stokes the fire, and smoke begins filling the room. Alice sits back down and starts inhaling deeply. As she becomes light headed she sees visions and memories of her previous adventures in Wonderland. She then sees a version of herself she’s not entirely familiar with, although she’s not altogether unfamiliar either. Alice’s eyes open wide. She remembers something. “No,” she says. “Not yet! There’s one more thing I haven’t tried.” She rushes to the widows and opens them up, gasping for air. Then she darts to the floo and opens that up again. She does her best to wave the smoke out of the room. Then she walks over to a table and picks up a snow globe with a miniature version of her childhood home inside. She take it to the chair and sits down with it. Alice moves her hand over the snow globe. As she does the house catches on fire and is burnt to cinders. She moves her hand back the other way and the house is standing again, unburnt. She does this a couple more times, before swipe her hand across it in a different direction. “Where and when could you be?,” she asks. In the snow globe we see that Alice is swiping through many different locations in Wonderland. Some we’ve seen already, some we haven’t. Eventually she comes across a circus area. “I don’t remember this place, but there you are. Well there I am” The camera zooms into a room where a young Alice sleeps. Adult Alice is already holding a crystal version of the Vorpal Blade when we cut to here. “There’s almost no chance of this working, but if it doesn’t, I really will die. Save us Alice.” Alice stabs the Vorpal Blade into the snow globe and we cut to the title.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

ok absolutely stupid question...is Alice Asylum going to be a game ? or has that been scrapped and we are focusing on a TV series instead?