Does anyone understand?
Added 2021-01-10 20:01:36 +0000 UTCI know I shouldn’t indulge people, but sometimes...😩
Comments
'Killing a character of color would be less of an issue if there wasn’t a history of films/tv constantly killing the only person of color in the film or show.' Agreed - and thats pretty much what I am saying. What is needed is a concerted effort on the parts of casting agents, writers directors etc to balance out the bigger picture - rather than seeing their production in isolation. Can their individual example of the only black character sacrificing themselves for the white leads be explained in innocent terms? More than likely - but that doesn't stop that example from adding to the bigger picture and the bigger picture is absolutely a problem. So they need to go to extra effort and be extra mindful: can their example be explained away, probably - but could they have been more mindful of the wider cultural context and made a conscious effort to change things? Almost certainly.
Dani C
2021-01-11 18:30:39 +0000 UTCIt’s only complicated for those who don’t see the problem and don’t want to change. Killing a character of color would be less of an issue if there wasn’t a history of films/tv constantly killing the only person of color in the film or show. It also would be less of an issue if people of color weren’t being killed in real life for simply being a person of color. Basically, when people of color are treated more equally in life for maybe the next 50-100 years, then white executives can kill more of them off on screen if they want.
Other Boy Reactions
2021-01-11 18:05:42 +0000 UTCI think what complicates the issue is that often individual episodes and casting choices are perfectly defensible in isolation: for instance, many of the side characters in Doctor Who die - they are already scripted to die and it may just be that a black actor reads for and is most suited to one of those roles. However, each of those individual cases mount up to an indefensible general trend - which if you are a person of colour, or LGBTQ+ you are far more likely to notice and be aware of than someone who isn't in one of those groups. Then when someone who is aware of and concerned about the wider trend tries to raise it with someone who isn't sensitised to the issue, the only way to demonstrate is by giving individual examples, which are often in and of themselves defensible.
Dani C
2021-01-11 17:00:39 +0000 UTCIt feels obvious to say but she should simply just imagine if she were in that position. As she brought up, she is a woman, if she were to watch a television show with a predominantly male cast where the female characters problems were brushed over and ignored (like in the Shakespeare episode with Martha) and they were constantly killed in undignified or sacrificing ways, she would 100% notice the trend. She doesn't even need to be a person of colour to understand why this is a problem in media as myself and many other white people in these comments have also recognised this problem. I think it is simply an issue of ignorance, misinformation and a lack of empathy toward poc on her behalf. Maybe it's not my place to say as I am white and I'm being too harsh, I don't know but this is what I think.
Heidi Steel
2021-01-11 16:35:07 +0000 UTCYou make a good point re. the issue of perceived stereotypes. I feel a degree of lattitude ought to be taken into account when it comes to writing /casting in this way. (For example,as a Brit I notice a great many characters in Hollywood films/TV are perceived to be villainous or untrustworthy types if they have a stereotyped English accent.) I try not to take it personally,as I suppose it's a form of shorthand when it comes to storytelling. Nonetheless,the same argument cannot easily be made when it comes to casting a person of colour. To take a Dr Who episode as an example: Midnight (an otherwise excellent story) features a group of people in a confined space,fighting an invisible 'evil entity' menace. These people are generally dislikable anyway,and become more so as the story progresses. The one excetion being the one woman of colour among them. At the end of the story,she deliberately sacrifices herself (by pulling the alien out of an airlock with her). I am completely certain that the writer devised this with the absolute very best of intentions,in order that the character would win our sympathy; and cast the role accordingly.... Unfortunately,the end result is that the one person-of-colour in the story sacrifices their own life so that the rather unlikeable white people can go on living!
Ian Smith
2021-01-11 14:21:54 +0000 UTCThe thing that gets me the most about commenters like that is that they can't fathom the concept of listening. Non-BIPOC people can never truly understand, no matter how well-intentioned or educated they may be (or claim to be). Even if you don't grasp what someone is telling you or agree with it, that doesn't give you the right to invalidate that person's experiences when THEY are the one who actually live it. If your first instinct is to argue or get defensive, you need to take several seats and figure out why that was your reaction. It's not a novelty for a Black character to sacrifice themselves for everyone else, or to never have a love interest, or to be the sassy sidekick, or to be the lone person of color in the group. Hell, the very fact that people can LIST all the characters of color goes to show that they're so few in number, and that there's even fewer who "get" to live or be treated right. TVD is particularly horrendous at that, but certainly is not the only offender. It's ridiculous that commenters like that don't get the problem in the first place, but at the very least they should just LISTEN. Self-awareness is free!
Laurel
2021-01-11 07:32:18 +0000 UTCI would not presume that I know what it feels like due to beeing a white woman living in Germany and therefore beeing even less confronted with the issue when growing up (things are changing here too and with all the BLM and really the pandemic you sometimes wonder what kind of people are living here that I'm afraid of what the future looks like) But I now what you are saying, I never really payed attention to the color of people that were dying in TV show's/Movies but since you pointed it out on TVD I realized it more and more and I'm shocked. This definitly has to change. I don't know if you can 100% compare these things but I see it in a lot a TV show's that Germans are often just Nazis and or/and when they make them talk German it is just like when Hitler was shouting not like the German language sounds at all. Or they use the 3rd Reich and WW2 in show's that are not historical or so just for a villain, using the german terminology and just pronouncing it horribly wrong like they not even tried at all
suveemi
2021-01-11 06:04:24 +0000 UTCSo true about the accurate portrayal of Beth and her daughters in contrast to Bonnie. If TVD were made today I think Kat Graham would insist on being natural as well after wearing wigs for so many years.
Other Boy Reactions
2021-01-11 05:04:58 +0000 UTCLol! True dat. I started watching because the actor who plays Kevin used to be on Passions, Young and the Restless and played Green Arrow on Smallville back in the day. I stayed because I found it great to see a happily married Black couple where the women wore bonnets at night and had different hairstyles all the time. Heh. Contrast it with Bonnie Bennett’s lace front and.. yeah. Progress?
Janeka Rector
2021-01-11 04:43:09 +0000 UTCThis Is Us just started getting good last season for me. The first few seasons I felt the siblings did nothing but whine lol
Other Boy Reactions
2021-01-11 04:15:06 +0000 UTCThis is Us is also fantastic at this. Leading with what you think is a trope and then turning it on its ear.
Janeka Rector
2021-01-11 04:12:56 +0000 UTCI’m not arguing with you, I’m discussing my own view as a Black woman & nerd with a TV degree. I love your opinions as it’s great that we’re able to have this discourse here. I am with you in wanting more. I think movies like Malcolm and Marie are lovely to see. And it’s why I enjoy Shondaland shows. How To Get Away with Murder and Scandal are so fun, contemporary, multicultural, and don’t shy away from addressing things even as they give you the dramatic messiness I crave. :)
Janeka Rector
2021-01-11 04:11:33 +0000 UTCPedro! I still get sad when I think about his short and beautiful life.
Jojo77
2021-01-11 04:00:36 +0000 UTCOn the matter of Bridgerton, I have to say that in the same vein of watching Black side characters be sacrificed, I get tired of watching Slavery-porn. Showing history as it was for Black people in many places and times is not joyful. I think it’s alright to have fanciful respites- such as Wakanda in the MCU and light-hearted and (not entirely unproblematic) Bridgerton. One thing I know for sure about TV and entertainment, exposure breeds tolerance and familiarity. My best example is how the Real World humanized the AIDS experience for millions of people. And yes, that was ‘reality’ based but there are studies that support that what we see influences us. Also, media is a reflection of us at the time despite the lens we’re examining. If we want to see a more diverse future, making fiction that supposes what would have happened if Queen Charlotte’s marriage to Mad King George ushered in an age of multiculturalism in regency England isn’t as harmful as other works that could be made with Black people at the time.
Janeka Rector
2021-01-11 03:16:04 +0000 UTCI thought long and hard on how to comment. But then I finally settled on the truth for me as I feel it. That I couldn't say I really truly and completely understand, because how could I. I'm a White, Straight Man. Despite those labels I have felt underrepresented in drama. I don't say this to be satirical or undermine the original question. But because for me, I am much more than those labels. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I hadn't seen people that look like me, portrayed in various fashions in film and television all my life. I do think we must begin or continue to listen to each other and try to understand those perspectives we might not initially comprehend ourselves and try to understand those perspectives the best we can.
Daryl
2021-01-11 01:23:08 +0000 UTCI've seen a lot of debate among my friends and associates in the theatre and entertainment worlds over the last 25 or so years. I'm a white hetero cis female gen xer, so I'm not the best to speak for the industry, but I can say from what I've observed that there is still some difference of opinion among POC as to when and where colorblind casting is appropriate in historical pieces, but the one thing that I think everyone is coming to realize is that it is most important to fund and produce art created by and for people of underrepresented backgrounds so that their voices and stories get a platform and enrich the cultural landscape.
Jojo77
2021-01-11 00:38:34 +0000 UTCIt's impossible for me to understand how it must feel when things like this constantly keep happening in TV shows you watch for fun. I'm not black, so I can't understand what it must feel like. I can only imagine (and only still to a certain extent) and it's really sad, honestly. That this is still happening, I mean. I read your comment about Bridgerton, and you're right. I feel like they had good intentions, but in the end they kind of messed up in a way. It's sad. Anyways, back to what I was saying -- it's sad that it still happens in a lot of TV shows and it really needs to change. Hopefully in the future (very soon) things are gonna change, cause that really needs to happen. More people of color should get leading roles, not just supporting roles and especially not just roles where they end up sacrificing themselves for white people, cause there is too much of that already. I also seem to notice that in some shows I watch, people of color are often cast to play 'bad people' and I hate that and it sucks so badly that this just keeps happening.
Anne27x
2021-01-10 22:47:29 +0000 UTCFor me the answer is not to rewrite history by putting people of color in situations that never would’ve happened just to give them a job. That’s making it seem like people of color were treated well and with respect in the past when that is far from the truth Especially when they are still not treated well today. It erases all the people of color in the past who didn’t have that respectful experience which is the majority. That actually reinforces the idea that everything is ok today and that racism doesn’t exist. Because people see black or Latino or Asian characters in period roles where they’re being treated just as well as whites when that was not the case. Depending on the time period and location they may not have been slaves, but they definitely would’ve been look down on, feared, and seen as less then. Yes there were a few black people who had higher positions in 16th century England but it was in no way the norm. The answer as far as diversity is to create more roles for people of color in modern stories. Not insert them in roles in period stories that are implausible. That’s also why it’s difficult for me to watch things like Hamilton or Bridgerton. If we lived in a more just and equal world those stories wouldn’t be a problem, but until then it doesn’t feel like a fun fantasy show it feels like denial and erasure.
Other Boy Reactions
2021-01-10 22:14:23 +0000 UTCSide note. This is why I was loving the show Bridgerton so much...the main ATTRACTIVE, intelligent, deep, compassionate high ranked, and all other great qualities you want in a main male lead is a man of color along with many other fantastic characters. This needs to be a norm. Now.
Jess The Fox
2021-01-10 22:07:30 +0000 UTCI think I do understand, though as a white person, I recognize that I may not grasp certain aspects as I am not on the receiving end of the problem. When I watched The Vampires Of Venice, it didn't jump out at me at the time, and I think it was probably not deliberate, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem. I remember Steven Moffat answering a question at a convention panel where he 'defended' casting people of colour in episodes set in the past, whether or not it resulted in an episode that accurately represented the demographics of the place and time, as he saw no reason to deny them work in favour of a white actor. I think that makes sense and means he was making an effort to do the right thing regarding race, but getting one thing right doesn't mean that you aren't getting other related things wrong. If that is a major pattern as you describe, efforts should definitely be made to avoid matching it. I think listening to people is important, and I try to be open to observations that I'm not thinking right about things. (Any comments about my post are welcome.)
Will
2021-01-10 20:59:49 +0000 UTCWhen a story’s protagonists are predominantly white (or people of color whose ethnicity has been diluted or disregarded), we often get secondary characters of color. This happens for reasons of inclusion or simply to visually set them apart from the protagonists. But what usually happens to secondary characters in these kinds of stories is they get killed: they’re sacrificed to the plot. It’s a constant reminder to viewers of color that they’re not the main characters, that they’re expendable, and that this is a story about white people and their triumphs. I think the only way for white audiences to grasp this white-centric trope is to imagine growing up watching TV shows and movies with only Black or Brown heroes and their victories, and a sprinkling of sacrificial white characters to further the plot.
Tumbili
2021-01-10 20:38:06 +0000 UTCUm yeah I’m gonna have to hard disagree with Nadine lol. There is DEFINITELY an issue of Black and poc characters in general being mistreated or tossed aside in numerous movies and tv shows. Hollywood has still not reached the level of diversity that reflects our day-to-day environments and tokenism continues to be an issue. There are so many forms of entertainment that either put in a minority character just to fulfill some sort of quota, as if to check off a box, or have them stay longer but serve no identity/purpose other than to talk solely about their race. It may not seem like an issue when minor poc characters get killed off, but the inadvertent message they’re sending is that they are disposable. I just think movies/tv shows need to be way more careful about this issue.
Lulu
2021-01-10 20:16:17 +0000 UTCThe original Night of the Living Dead is a favorite of mine, not because I'm a fan of zombie movies, but because George Romero subverted that trope that already existed way back in the 1960s by letting the black guy make it to the end. There's also the 'kill your gays' trope in which LGBTQ+ people always have to suffer or be sacrificed or have the whole point of their character be their sexual identity. Some film and tv makers have been working in recent years to fight these tropes, but we still have a loooong way to go.
Jojo77
2021-01-10 20:14:39 +0000 UTCThe notion that the only way a Black person is worthwhile is if they’re willing to give, suffer, or die for white people continues to this day. Also, you’ll notice in movies how Black people are the first to be killed- it demonstrates how bad your big-bad is if he can easily kill a Black person. Black Death on screen is an unintentional message about the value of life. Acknowledging it doesn’t mean you don’t enjoy the entertainment you’re watching. It just means you. Can be aware of the injustice and if you take an extra second, think about that that says to a Black AND a non-Black audience.
Janeka Rector
2021-01-10 20:13:37 +0000 UTCIt's like that one episode of Doctor Who where he and a few others were in the train with the alien that made you repeat after others and steal their voice. And when the Doctor was almost possessed but the blonde lady that was the one stealing the voice, influenced the people to throw the doctor off the train so then the black woman that worked there sacrificed herself to save the doctor by throwing herself and the villain off of the train. And it pissed me off cause it just had to be the black woman that saved the day by getting herself killed especially when there were more white people there just taking the villain's side
ben davis
2021-01-10 20:10:58 +0000 UTCI think the treatment of Martha is why I hate Rose so much. Seeing the far superior in intelligence and class Martha just suffer because she can't live up to the 'chav' who looks like a Walt (Nazis aren't that bad) Disney princess from the 1930s or 40s really rubbed me the wrong way. And I completely understand the trope you are talking about, it's well established. I haven't watched all of the Jodi Whittaker era Who yet, but I'm given to understand that Chris Chibnall handles issues of race and gender better than some earlier show runners. Which is likely why those seasons elicit so much hate from insecure cis white male fans.
Jojo77
2021-01-10 20:09:33 +0000 UTCI understand that they don't understand
Samuel Coghlan-White
2021-01-10 20:05:00 +0000 UTC
