Bill 58 (page 49)
Added 2021-10-02 10:36:19 +0000 UTCOn today’s episode of “everybody makes mistakes and says things they don’t mean”…
Don’t worry, we’re only two pages away from the end of the fight!
Questions help me round out the world so if you have one you’re more than welcome to ask away!
Comments
You are absolutely doing him justice! Everything about him rings true when I look at him with 'autistic eyes'. That's why I recognize the things he does and the way he reacts. You are handing him wonderfully and with respect, because we are so much more than our autistic traits, but still they chip in and give us challenges in how to handle situations that nevrotypical persons may have no problems with. I also want to say that it feels wonderful to see a story where one of the main persons is an Asberger, because I feel I can finally identify with this person and his reactions in a way I usually don't, when the characters are neurotypical. Thank you, Whiteley, for creating this lovely personality for Mansa! I'm guessing that the reason this fight will soon end, is that Song will run out of the room... that fits with his hot-head personality. But will you also let us see how Mansa reacts after this, when his meltdown is over and the inevitable collapse will follow? Since I'm identifying myself so closely with him, it would be lovely to see depicted the autistic reactions that follow, too. That would be collapse, exhaustion, sadness and despair and mentally beating oneself up big time - at least those are the reactions i'm familiar with.
Bobla Blubb
2021-10-03 15:18:38 +0000 UTCYou are completely correct! I have been talking with a few neurodivergent people about how to write this scene over the past few weeks and all in all we’ve been happy with the result. I want to be as accurate and sensitive as possible when it comes to writing Mansa in situations where he becomes overwhelmed and this was definitely the most difficult scene. I hope I’ve done it justice!
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-03 13:24:25 +0000 UTCI've been looking at the way Mansa behaves in all the various situations in his life, trying to understand what he is like. My impression so far, is that he is very intelligent and smart regarding studies and work, especially the theoretical parts of it, meaning he is good at reading and understanding complex legal matters etc. And he is capable of working hard and long, and go deeply into the matter he is studying/working on, aka hyper-concentrating. At the same time, he seems to have trouble in certain social situations, with understanding people's intentions, what they really mean, etc, and that it can be difficult for him to know what to say - or to be able to say the right things. Basically, he is incredibly book-smart and intelligent, but rather awkward and helpless when having to deal with others in social situations. This fits well into his relationships, aka having very few real friends, maybe only Thomas, and not really being interested in sexual relationships with anyone, until Song came along and pushed the right buttons - because he is kinda ace/demisexual. All in all, Mansa gives me the impression of being a very intelligent man with Asbergers (high-functioning autism). I feel I recognize almost everything about him, because both me and my son, and several others in my closest family, have that diagnosis, and we are just like him! That also fits very nicely in with what's happening with him during this argument, where he gets too overwhelmed to be able to find the right words for what he really means, and the result being a meltdown and maybe even a total collapse afterwards. I understand his reactions so completely, and they strike so much recognition in me, and that explains so very much. Does this fit with your ideas of Mansa, Whiteley? Could he be somewhere on the high end of the autism spectrum?
Bobla Blubb
2021-10-03 06:04:39 +0000 UTCAnd again character studying or brainstorming about them I doesn't mean it to make you change anything but to make myself understand stuff better, not for anything else, it's your story and you lead it however you want obviously, i'm sorry if you felt I wrote you to change it, not at all I anted to write that!
Gabriel Hale
2021-10-02 23:08:10 +0000 UTCI'm sorry but patreon is such a trash site and while I was sending my replies yours didn't load, only saw them from emails and here "I’m sorry you don’t like his response but it is what it is and I’m not going to change it at this point", I'm sorry, I-i never said you should?! Sorry if you felt it that way! I'm just super interested in character studies when the story got me but I have very little chance to mindbreaking about characters because irl, bt now I did but sorry it's not your thing or something you like to happen then I apologize for going into it and it won't happen again, sorry, I just got carried in the details and the story's pull
Gabriel Hale
2021-10-02 23:06:18 +0000 UTCSong is definitely not able to get a well paying job. He can perform, but he does not have an education and it would be difficult to even come close to the amount they’d need to keep their home and pay for expenses.
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 22:09:28 +0000 UTCAh okay. I'm just trying to understand the reason behind their behavior and reactions and see if I missed it somehow ?. But then Song could get any job he want if he choses to try? Is he considered some lower class citizen and being kept away from works by it then? Or from some workplaces or hight payments, for example
Gabriel Hale
2021-10-02 22:04:57 +0000 UTCGive it another few pages. This is their only fight, it’s supposed to be bad. And keep in mind that on this very page he’s already taking back what he said.
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 21:59:28 +0000 UTCOn the other hand about Mansa, if it wasn't because he's not enough clever then I don't see much other possibility ?? then it leaves me with the explanation of him having anger issues and honestly if Songs just leaves him for this ugly trigger reaction he got for something that was an everyday event between them until that point then Mansa totally had it coming and I'd understand Song's choice of leaving him till Mansa fixed himself (not his payment!) up. Hope Mansa will grow in his head in or get his act together or get treating for his anger/snapping issues because that's just so not cool kicking something for a totally usual thing.
Gabriel Hale
2021-10-02 21:56:22 +0000 UTCI’m sorry you don’t like his response but it is what it is and I’m not going to change it at this point 😅 This is the only time he gets this overwhelmed in the entire story, he’s having a meltdown and he’s spiraling. The last thing he’s doing is thinking clearly.
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 21:53:03 +0000 UTCOkay, I'm just taken aback by Mansa's acting because, I dunno but if I remember right but you said he was top of his class, people though of him so good in his job to take up upper class work position in a decade and beside these things he is creating laws so that paints him super intelligent and sharp. But his reaction here anything but that, it's like somebody different. From Such a clever people I expected to get the gig of the issue not within a night but even within a hour because financial issues are blunt and simple, however harash they are or request big changes it's still simple to solve of you lose a big payment you either change job asap to keep your situation afloat, maybe move into cheaper place, but honestly the most simple and eye-poking solution is your partner to get a job when they don't have one.I meant to ask this because your wording didn't made it clear but is Song unable to work a regular job or anything he want, by some legal reason? Because he seems like a person who could be way much more and not just a held-out-pretty-body/escort-sidekick, if he start to stand up for himself and be his own people like having own payment for example then I imagine he could be his own person and a whole strong own side in this relationship with Mansa, not just Mansa's sidekick. I like the escort AU-s, but the held-out persons always have the potential to grow and be their own person and I think that's am amazing character building in every story and Song looks like he could do that too.
Gabriel Hale
2021-10-02 21:44:07 +0000 UTCAnd it would be hard for Song to be the bread winner on Song, because his profession is not very lucrative. Even if he does start working more events they wouldn’t be able to keep this house.
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 19:42:41 +0000 UTCNobody said he’s doing the right thing 🤷🏻♀️ everybody makes mistakes, they’d be boring characters if they didn’t! Mansa did fall asleep probably pretty early on and he was going to have a calm conversation (a few pages ago) before he was surprised by the purchase. Song’s not in the wrong, Mansa’s not in the right. They’re stressed and making bad decisions.
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 19:42:02 +0000 UTCUm I was talking about the money issue, not the argument and he had the whole night to see through the situation, not just 2 min. He knows they spend so much, a whole night isn't enough for anybody to see the obvious solution? or am I missed here and Song legally forbidden to work any work and it's not an option ? Also Mansa knows Song doesn't know the situation yet so yelling off Songs head for doing something totally usual in their life was totally uncalled for and requires and immediately apology to make it right because it was really ugly
Gabriel Hale
2021-10-02 19:19:46 +0000 UTCHe definitely does considering his history! But Mansa truly didn’t mean it in a malicious way. Still, Song definitely deserves to be pissed
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 16:38:22 +0000 UTCProbably! I haven’t really worked that out just yet though 😊
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 16:36:49 +0000 UTCWill we get to meet Song’s and Mansa’s parents in the comics?
Clare
2021-10-02 16:36:19 +0000 UTCI still don’t think what Song is saying here is nearly as harsh as Mansa’s screw up yesterday. At this point he’s got every right to be pissed off.
Jessie Marie (SuperGeek21)
2021-10-02 16:33:45 +0000 UTC😭
rippingoffmyface
2021-10-02 15:25:10 +0000 UTCThat’s correct! It’s just a normal one for this time period. The courtesan provides company and affection in return for financial security. The law would be on the courtesan’s side if for some reason they cannot pay. This really isn’t the case for Song and Mansa though. Courtesan Contracts were the closest human/infernal couples could get to being married at the time when they started dating so that’s why they decided on this! But their actual relationship consists of them living off Mansa’s money, they really don’t abide by any contract terms. They did it more to be acknowledged by the courts that their relationship was legitimate.
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 14:59:26 +0000 UTCWhat are the terms of a courtesan contract? Is there a financial aspect, like an expectation that the courtesan be provided a certain level of lifestyle? What happens if either party breaches it?
Balder12
2021-10-02 14:39:37 +0000 UTCI love how the dynamics of this page have changed since your teaser. It hits differently but just as deep. 👏👏👏
Caren
2021-10-02 14:16:59 +0000 UTCThey probably had some mentors and older friends, but mostly socializing with Harmony, Vonya, Etty, and Thomas! Their relationship with Song’s parents is really good, but they do /not/ understand at all. It’s based off my relationship with my parents actually 😅 Song’s mother (in her 60s has finally come out quietly (just to her kids) as liking humans and infernals - go mommy!) but has a lot of internalized stuff and she tries not to project. She’s so supportive but gets easily confused, she’s always super receptive though! Dad’s a little different! He’s less receptive and more defensive, but he’s hates that his old fashioned ways hurt Song so he tries to keep an open mind. And when he doesn’t agree (because he doesn’t understand) he keeps his mouth shut until later when his wife can dumb it down for him. Pretty much years of living in a very unaccepting conservative household as a child have fucked him up pretty bad. I imagine when he met Mansa he just sat on the couch smiling nervously and sweating the whole time. The two get on great now, but sometimes his unwillingness to grow does irk Mansa. (He’s growing… just slowly!)
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 13:54:33 +0000 UTCYou’re a little bit ahead of us 🤫 remember we’re about 30 seconds into an argument (that feels much longer because you’re doing a panel a day) He’s not babying him, he’s just not there yet
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 13:42:40 +0000 UTCI am deceased 😭😭
Michelle Garcia
2021-10-02 13:28:37 +0000 UTCThere's a world of difference between saying someone is "mine" romantically and "mine" when arguing about money. That'd get my hackles up and I haven't had the night before that Song has. Separate question - What's their relationship with Song's parents? Mansa's parents aren't nearby, right? Do they have any older parental or mentor figures in their lives? They got together when they were very young; did they ever have any one looking out for them? (Harmony and Voya (sp?) would be there, but they're the same generation.)
catididnt
2021-10-02 13:15:19 +0000 UTCI don't get why Song just get a job so they can't drown, or Mansa thinking of Song getting a job? Why Mansa is thinking of Song as a baby/incapable of doing any adult stuff such as working a job?
Gabriel Hale
2021-10-02 13:07:04 +0000 UTCThank you for such a detailed answer! This is such a fascinating world you’ve created 😊❤️ (and now I’m imagining baby Song twirling in a dress 🥰🥰)
JillianVolts
2021-10-02 12:28:14 +0000 UTCI’d say opinions vary 70/30 (for/against) gender norms in clothing. Because amab infernals are slighter than afab infernals they tend to fit into human women’s clothing super easily. (And the same goes for afab infernals wearing human men’s clothing) It probably didn’t start off as a statement but more as a convenience for infernals who couldn’t afford custom tailored clothing but liked the human style. There are some humans who hate it but for the most part it’s so common that nobody really notices anymore. So Song’s parents wouldn’t have any problem with how he dresses really!
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 12:10:03 +0000 UTCIt does mean that Mansa supports him and being Mansa’s partner becomes Song’s job almost. But they’ve never really treated it like that. Song was in debt when they entered the contract (he made a quick comment to Thomas about the possibility of owing him money back in The Courtesan) so Mansa took over their finances. After his promotion money wasn’t an issue so they just lived off Mansa’s income without any worries or accountability as to who owes what, up until now.
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 12:03:17 +0000 UTCQuestion; I know you’ve said this is a world where there’s no BS prejudice about gender, sexuality, pronouns, etc. (and THANK YOU for that)… all that being said, do infernal and human families still initially dress their children according to ‘male/female’ societal gender norms? This is all an elaborate way of asking, did Songs parents support him wearing dresses when he was young or did he have to be off on his own before he would dress the ways he wanted?
JillianVolts
2021-10-02 12:01:10 +0000 UTCI am relieved to hear that, although it doesn’t make this conversation much easier 😭
Ash S.
2021-10-02 12:00:54 +0000 UTC(Also I’m so fucking proud of Song, pls let me give him the biggest hug)
Ash S.
2021-10-02 11:59:15 +0000 UTCNo, they’ve never been owned or considered property!
Whiteley Foster
2021-10-02 11:58:41 +0000 UTCIs there a history in this universe of infernals being owned?
Ash S.
2021-10-02 11:58:08 +0000 UTCSigh… this is why we don’t fight first thing in the morning on no sleep and/or right before bed when exhaustion makes word choice impossible. Also thinking of what Song went through the night before with Elon and being reminded of all that ‘possessive’ pain. Oh boys… gonna go back to that ear nibble painting now…
JillianVolts
2021-10-02 11:55:21 +0000 UTCOn today's episode of trying to fix it is actually making it worse 🥺🥺 I suspected that's what Mansa meant because of the contract. I remember you explaining what a courtesan is a few comics back, but what does the contract really entail? What are each parties responsabilities? Is Mansa supposed to support them financially while Song just looks pretty, an arm candy situation? Or is it closer to concubinage?
the.kitsuneko
2021-10-02 11:44:34 +0000 UTC🥺 I know right.
NGK
2021-10-02 11:28:25 +0000 UTCOh, you just broke my heart more than this page already did!
sparksearcher
2021-10-02 11:26:27 +0000 UTCOh god I hadn’t even thought about that. 💔💔
pyracantha
2021-10-02 11:19:51 +0000 UTCI’ve also been on Songs side and reacted much more destructively. With his boundary laid out here and frankly not knowing what’s up he’s having a pretty understandable reaction. If it gets uglier from here maybe we’ll have to give him less credit. ❤️🩹❤️🩹
pyracantha
2021-10-02 11:19:14 +0000 UTCOh dear, and this will set Mansa up for years of self torment after Song does leave. He will run through every conversation running running up to that. Doubting his memory of events. I feel for both of them.
NGK
2021-10-02 11:18:36 +0000 UTCUgh Mansa I have been in those shoes and they suck. You say something you don’t realize sounds awful because you’re upset and tired and then everything you say after is like digging it in worse. It’s incredibly frustrating to be that one in the argument. You just want to stop and get a do over. ❤️🩹❤️🩹
pyracantha
2021-10-02 11:16:26 +0000 UTCI agree! I know this is a big fight with lots of hurt words and mistakes with words but I was actually proud of Song here setting a boundary and knowing his worth. Especially after the night he had and as embarrassed as he may be about the end of it, the showdown with his ex/trauma makes it a big deal for him to defend himself.
pyracantha
2021-10-02 11:12:42 +0000 UTC:((
Vala
2021-10-02 10:47:29 +0000 UTCooooh, Mansa's regretting his words already... unfortunately, been there, wanted to stitch my mouth shut forever 😔💔 and oh, Song's reaction sounds very justified, coming from the place of deep trauma, knowing his story, and him setting such a boundary and defending himself there somehow feels like a big step ❤️
sick_pineapple
2021-10-02 10:45:26 +0000 UTCBabies 🥺🥺😭😭
KhajitTink
2021-10-02 10:38:15 +0000 UTC
