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Know Your Enemy
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The Kennedy Imprisonment (w/ Jeet Heer)

In this episode, Matt and Sam welcome the Nation's Jeet Heer to the podcast to continue their journey into the work of Garry Wills—in particular, Wills's under-appreciated 1982 masterpiece, The Kennedy Imprisonment: A Meditation on Power. The book might be thought of as a sequel to his earlier Nixon Agonistes (1970). As Wills puts it in his introduction to the most recent edition of The Kennedy Imprisonment, "I had written a book about Nixon, and it was not a biography, but an attempt to see what could be learned about America from the way Nixon attracted or repelled his fellow countrymen. Why not do the same thing for the Kennedys?"

The result of Wills's efforts is a devastating portrait of an Irish-Catholic family who strove to be accepted at the most rarified heights of American society—and then, when they weren't, relentlessly pursued political power. Along the way, the family patriarch, Joseph Kennedy, used his money and influence to create a series of myths surrounding his sons, most of all the son who would become president, John F. Kennedy. It is these myths at which Wills takes aim, showing how Joseph Kennedy bought his second son good press, a heroic war record, and even a Pulitzer Prize. And it was Joseph Kennedy who taught his sons what was expected of them as men: to use and dominate women (many, many women), to valorize virility and daring and risk, and to understand power as enlightened leadership by the best and brightest (most of all, the Kennedys), not as harnessing the popular energy of mass movements. What begins as a book exposing the Kennedy men as wannabe aristocrats bent on conquest, both sexual and political, ends as an indictment of the liberalism they came to represent.

Sources:

Garry Wills, The Kennedy Imprisonment: A Meditation on Power (1982)

Garry Wills, Nixon Agonistes: The Crisis of the Self-Made Man (1970)

Garry Wills, Bare Ruined Choirs: Doubt, Prophecy, and Radical Religion (1972)

Joan Didion, "Wayne at the Alamo," National Review, Dec 31, 1960

Hugh Kenner, The Mechanic Muse (1988)

Hugh Kenner, The Pound Era (1971)

Richard E. Neustadt, Presidential Power and the Modern Presidents: The Politics of Leadership from Roosevelt to Reagan (1960)

John Leonard, "Camelot's Failure," New York Times, Feb 25, 1982

Norman Mailer, "Superman Comes to the Supermarket," Esquire, Nov 1960

The Kennedy Imprisonment (w/ Jeet Heer)

Comments

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm nearly finished with the book, and it -is- excellent and sharp in many ways. But Wills simply lumps JFK's growing distrust with the security establishment as part of his clan's ethos of piratical assaults on institutions - I don't think it's loony in 2023 to say he had reason to distrust the generals and CIA! And his sections on Bobby, while perceptive, really need to be read in conversation with David Talbot's Brothers. Wills' analysis of charismatic leadership does add a lot to my understanding of JFK and the Unspeakable (imo one of the best books on JFK) and how his own evolving attitudes towards Cuba and the USSR led to nothing. Kennedy's preference for doing business through close interpersonal relationships and concern for public image meant that he included very few advisers in his awkward turning towards a new paradigm. It was really limited to backchannels with Khruschev and Castro, sometimes McNamara - even Bobby wasn't fully keyed in. He barely had a clique in his own administration - never mind a popular movement - to support these emerging efforts for peace. Because of his insistence on self-contained charismatic leadership, when he died, that evolution died too.

drizzly_november

This was so disappointing- I love Willis but doing this ep but not touching on all the genuine scholarship done on JFK’s skepticism towards the security state or adventures abroad during his administration is disappointing. Wills was working with what he had but we have learned a lot since then. JFK was both an Oedipal figure who was distorted in the liberal imagination and a turning point in history as the last president to be revolted by the security state. Anyways love you boys

KC

“The primal sex father sins soberly” should be the new KYE vocal warmup / mic check phrase

Justin

Loved this episode! When John Leonard was mentioned as reviewing Wills in the NYT I was wondering if you would mention that he began his career with Didion and Wills at National Review. My mom introduced me to both Leonard and Didion and it always fascinated me that two of her favorite writers started at National Review! Maybe a testament to the legitimizing project Buckley engaged in at the start of the magazine.

Alex Goudie-Averill

Great episode, great guest. I can’t be the only one to notice the strong resemblance of the Chappaquiddick incident with Kendall’s car crash in Succession? Same crash, same coverup. And maybe same character? The substance-dependent fuckup scion of a powerful family, desperate to win approval through triumph; abject failure on those terms.

Jesse Harber

JUST finished the devils chessboard by David talbot so thank you for an amazing and timely episode

Jared Young

Jeet was a great guest! Please have him back for an equally meaty discussion in the future.

Mark K

This was a good discussion full of sharp insights as usual. As an older person, I grew up believing that the Kennedy presidency was an ideal never equalled. This seminar on Wills' book (which I've not read, but now intend to) challenged my ideal in an important way, for which I'm grateful --It was quite disappointing, therefore, when the discussion turned inevitably to Chappaquiddick. In a conversation about the sexual exploitation of women by powerful men, I heard three men refer to the 28 year-old victim of Ted Kennedy as a "girl." When you finally managed to say her name, you bungled it. It's Mary Jo Kopechne, not "Kopechnic."

Martin Wallen

This made me so mad! RFK had much bigger reasons to fear LBJ and the fbi than his brothers affairs

KC

In The Onion’s book “Our Dumb Century” their front page for Kennedy’s election included the item “JFK to lead nation in good natured game of touch football”, I think that was pretty accurate haha

Mark K

one of the all timer eps fs

Maurice Marion

As a liberal Catholic from Massachusetts who nonetheless resents the Kennedys’ dynastic grip on the state, I can’t tell you how satisfying it was to vote for Markey in 2020 over Kennedy. He ran a totally empty campaign based on a presumed entitlement to rule — the Kennedy imprisonment in a nutshell. Great episode, gotta add this Wills to my reading list!

Sean Keeley

Damn fine episode. Thank you very much gentlemen

John Poorman

“Seal Team Sex” ☠️⚰️

Jenna Harmon

Can someone tell me more about why conservatives are enjoying GK Chesterton right now and is it just the antisemitism

Grace Gilker

If the aim was to deflate the Kennedy Mythos, Wills did well to put the sexual stuff up front, because you want to take a shower after reading it, jeez...

Peter Jensen

You assume?…You ASSUME?! OK, you’re right. That’s why we have you. But really, thank you all. I’ve learned more about the structure of conservatism through it’s writers and thinkers and weirdos in the 3 years since turning 70 than I did in all the years before that. Keep up the good work!

Ray Stanczak

That’s true, but if more of us listened to this podcast, it would become apparent that no party is exempt or above it. I’ll be recommending it to not only my fellow lefties, but to my conservative friends as well. There’s a lot here that helps to understand America, and how both parties represent it. Happy Thanksgiving!

Ray Stanczak

this rocked

Phil Christman

Thank you for mentioning Gloria Swanson, Joe Kennedy did have an affair with her and yes it's about sex but importantly he also robbed her blind. Women of the silent era were unusually powerful and rich in Hollywood so Joe's betrayal and taking of Swanson was particularly devious.

giulietta karras

Early in the Trump years, there were definitely some comparisons made to the Kennedys’ governing style, particular the reliance on family members (it’s easy to forget that Bobby’s appointment as AG was initially seen as a little unseemly) and the preference for extralegal backchannels.

drizzly_november

The connection with Trump is especially interesting considering the sheer number of members of the Irish-American hall of shame who earned their membership of that rotten borough by being the worst of the worst in the Trump admin. As an Irishman, it brings me true and punishing shame.

Dónal Gill

Rather a lot of leftists and progressives are rather quick to diagnose a case of the Oedipal. In others, at least.

Adam Lewis

George W had infantilising nicknames for his staff too. Condi, Rummy, Turd Blossom et al knew their place.

Matt Gately

A bonkers Chappaquiddick detail: Mary Jo Kopechnee's parents were somehow persuaded to endorse Ted Kennedy in 1980.

Rick Perlstein

What a great conversation, I love when you guys get so animated! So many insights into liberalism.

Dan Anderson

Nixon Agonistes was the first book that was as fun to read as to hear y'all talk about. Garry Wills is a total rock star

Leonardo Restrepo

It’s up to you! We assume most listeners haven’t read the books we discuss, so it’s not necessary (Matt)

mjs

Last Christmas, I ended up buying Nixon Agonistes for two of my grandfathers, based on the KYE episode this time last year. Perhaps this year, I’ll do the same with The Kennedy Imprisonment. Thank you KYE for making Christmas shopping easy for the fans of dense political biographies in our lives!

Liam

The question: should i listen before or after reading the Kennedy imprisonment

Leonardo Restrepo


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