SamSuka
alexwoolfson
alexwoolfson

patreon


So, Patreon did this dumb thing...

Howdy everyone,

So, y'all received an email yesterday where Patreon said they were changing their "Payment Fee Structure." If you missed that email, you can read about the change here (and there's a Q&A here) but the short answer is that they are adding a fee of 2.9% plus $0.35 USD to pledges to cover transaction costs (so, if you have a $5 pledge, they'll charge an extra $0.50 to cover the transaction costs.) This change is supposed to happen on December 18th.

Their reasons for doing this include creating a more predictable and consistent income for creators (right now, creators pay the transaction fees), as well as reducing the overall amount of transaction fees (right now, the transaction fee paid by creators can vary between 7-15% of the pledge totals). If you read their "Update" at the bottom of this post, they further explain that this will also allow them to move to a more sensible subscription model where people get charged each month based on the date they pledged, instead of getting charged immediately when they pledge and then switched to getting charged at the 1st of the month (which lead to new Patrons feeling they were double-charged if they, say, pledged on November 28th, got charged on that day, and then were charged again on December 1st—which is what can happen with the current fee schedule.)

While I, myself, haven't had an issue with paying the transaction fees, I know other creators have had a hard time with it. And I can see how charging people monthly on the date they pledged makes a lot more sense than the current system. Both are problems that could use fixing, and it's possible this is the best, least expensive way to do that, overall.

But the way Patreon shared their plans for this was, frankly, awful. They never consulted me (or many creators, it seems) about whether we were comfortable shifting the transaction fees to our Patrons. In fact, they sent an email to me about the change only 24 hours before y'all got one. (And I only found that email when a reader asked me what was going on.) And in that email, they basically said it was a done-deal, no exceptions.

And understandably, creators were pissed. 

I support a number of creators here on Patreon, several of whom have already posted their reaction to this change—and it's been universally negative. Pretty much everyone talked about how they felt blind-sided by this change. Some creators pointed out that, while the overall increase in terms of pennies and dollars wasn't huge, it would disproportionately affect those creators who relied on $1 pledges since the percentage increase for those pledges would be huge, because of the fixed $0.35 USD transaction charge. And any increase in payment amount, even a small one, is a big deal—this whole thing works only because of the generosity of awesome Patrons like you—and many creators felt we were being forced to make a demand on our Patrons that we never asked for or wanted to make.

Many of these creators asked their Patrons to email Patreon to reverse this change. Some have openly flirted with the idea of rage-quitting Patreon to switch to some other platform. There isn't actually a good alternative right now, but like I said, creators are pissed. And I don't blame them. Patreon should have checked with us first about this, they should have done a better job explaining it from the start, they should have given a lot more warning, and potentially they should have given creators the option to opt-out.

So, here we are now. Some of you have asked me what you should do. And others have asked if I'm going to rage-quit Patreon over this.

Is this a money grab for Patreon?

There's a line of thinking that the secret reason Patreon is doing this is as a "money grab," that somehow they are going to financially benefit from this change.  After reading that Update at the end of their blog post, I find that unlikely. Also, I live near the Patreon office, and so I've had a chance to meet the team there a few times—to really get to know them. Their whole culture is about supporting creators, and everyone I talked to seems to have really drunk that Kool-Aid. My direct experience of them—when I've needed their help, or had a suggestion of a way to improve things—is that they've been very responsive and eager to find good solutions. That their over-arching mission is to help creators succeed.

I suppose it's possible that their culture has undergone a huge change since I last dropped by, but if you asked me to guess? I think they really believe that they are acting in the best interest of the creators here—they just have handled the roll out of this very, very badly. They are still a young company and, frankly, their ability to communicate changes has never been great. It's always been one of their weak spots.

So, will this change actually happen? 

I have my doubts. So many creators—creators much more popular than me—have protested so strongly, I expect them to backtrack. I myself have asked them to hit pause on these plans. I think the strongest argument for this change is the one they made in that Update—that it's the best way to set up a more intuitive subscription model, to make it so Patrons can be charged based on the day they sign up—but if they want to make that argument, I think they are going to need to take more time to explain it and get everyone on board. And come up with a better, more fair solution for $1 and "per-creation" pledges.

What do I think you should do?

I know some folks are trying to decide whether they should change or eliminate their pledges based on this change. If the change would be a financial hardship for you, then I think you should make the choice to keep yourself safe.

That aside, some folks have asked if they should quit Patreon based on principle. And I suppose that will depend on your reasons for offering your support to creators. And whether you think Patreon is one of the good guys or one of the bad guys. 

I've expressed my own take above. I think the folks at Patreon are good people. And the truth of the matter is, if they didn't exist, if they hadn't gone out of their way to help me get set up here, I wouldn't be making these comics today. They could certainly do things in the future that could blow my trust, but as of now anyway, they've earned more than a little benefit of the doubt from me. 

What am I going to do?

Patreon is how I make my living and it's currently the only way for me to continue making these comics.  I think they handled this poorly, but I'm not convinced they did it for any other reason than to try to make things better for creators. My loyalty to them is not absolute, but I do believe that they've earned some loyalty from me. I still believe in them and what they are doing here—for me, and for all the other creators.

We'll see how this unfolds. I'll keep you in the loop if anything changes. But for now and for the foreseeable future, I'm not going anywhere. 

I'll, of course, respect whatever decision you make, but I hope you'll stick around too. I couldn't do this without you, and your support here is what makes these comics possible. 

Just recently, the support here has increased to the level where I've been able to start building back the savings that I had burned through during the lean time.  For the first time, in a long time, things are feeling truly sustainable to me with these comics.  Patreon just did something very dumb, and I find that very frustrating, but what they've made possible, what you've made possible, I'll always be very grateful for.  And with your help, I'll be able to continue making these comics for a long time to come.

You are now, and will always be, superheroes to me. You are all truly amazing people. And I look forward to sharing many more fun stories with y'all in the future.

Alex





Comments

Thank you, Theadora. That means a lot to me. :) Hopefully, I'll be able to get some more answers this week. Or, at least, a better understanding about what they were thinking. I'll keep y'all posted.

Alex Woolfson

Alex, thank you for being so transparent about what you've done and the interactions you've had with folks at Patreon. It comforts me to know that at least *somebody* is having face-to-face convos about this with them. If this change goes through as-is, I'll be able to stick with Patreon for at least December and January, but then I might have to figure out something else. And I will stick with you, at least partially because of all your efforts to let us know what's going on, both now and earlier.

Theadora

It's not too much to ask. But the truth is that's it's very difficult for creators to tell how much is being withdrawn for transaction fees, particularly on the individual pledge level. I think that's one of the things they are trying to solve—albeit in a way that so far doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I know some creators have offered to try to come up with some formula that somehow would subvert Patreon's plans here. But it's hard to really know whether it would actually work, and how exactly to do it so things actually stay the same. And even if we could game each of the levels to the penny so it all cancels out, I think it would add a layer of confusion to folks new to Patreon ("why all these odd pledge levels?") and doesn't really solve the main issues—which is that the system seems to punish those creators who rely on $1 pledges and "per-creation" pledges and that (even if it's just pennies) this is placing a burden on our Patrons we as creators didn't ask for. I'm going to be speaking with my contact at Patreon this week directly to try to understand exactly why they think it's necessary to add that $0.36 fixed charge to every single pledge, instead of charging it just once for all pledges. Why they felt it was necessary to shift the transaction fees from the creators to our Patrons. (And I'll also encourage them to put this whole change on pause until they get more feedback.) I'll let y'all know if I find anything useful out. In the meantime, though, my thoughts on this remain the same—for the time being, I'm not going to make any changes, but if they do put this in place and that extra $0.64 is a financial burden, then you should absolutely take care of yourself to be financially safe. I won't just understand that choice, it would be the choice I'd want you to make. As one of my awesome readers, your safety should always come first. But I still think Patreon is going to change course on this. It's just a shame we're all having to put so much mental time and effort trying to figure out what to do about it in the meantime. :/

Alex Woolfson

Would it be too much to ask what processing percentage you pay, Alex? Depending on how much you were paying to Patreon versus how much is now going to be shifted to your patrons, perhaps you can add new pledge levels that include the charges so that patrons’ payments don’t change but what you receive remains the same or even goes up. I pledge at $10 which means I’ll soon be paying $10.64; however, if you have a $9.38 level, I would still pay $10 and you would receive $8.91 according to Patreon’s announcement. This may not be a great solution for lower-level pledges, but it may offer a stop-gap for folks who can’t take on much more financial burden.

Melanie Conrad

I agree that this change seems to punish Patrons making smaller pledges (and the creators who survive on those smaller pledges.) As I've mentioned above—providing that I'm understanding what the issues are—I can definitely think of some better ways for them to try to solve the problems that exist with the current system. My contact at Patreon has already reached out to me personally and offered to have a direct conversation about all this. I'm going to take her up on that, and I'll raise the issues y'all brought up here, and make what suggestions I can for a better way. We'll see. :)

Alex Woolfson

Hey Michael, I've never met Raviv and looking at that statement out of context, I can see how folks could read that as "We don't care about the little creators, we just want the big fish." I found the article where that quote comes from, "Inside the 6 Hypotheses that Doubled Patreon’s Activation Success" (<a href="https://brianbalfour.com/essays/patreon-onboarding-growth" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://brianbalfour.com/essays/patreon-onboarding-growth</a>), and reading that quote in context, I'm not sure that's how he meant it. I mean, the whole piece is filled with marketing jargon, which I find very off-putting (which I'll own as my own issue, I just don't like "marketing-speak.") And God forbid that I try to translate the poor communications of Patreon's public statements—they certainly don't make it easy. But reading it in context, I get the impression that he really meant to say "Hey, we could make our money by taking our 5% off of a huge volume of creators who wind up only making peanuts, but we'd rather make money by ensuring that those who sign up actually have real success, even if that means the number of creators on our platform aren't as impressive." (And the Web site where the article was written seems to be all about trying to create impressive "user acquisition" numbers, so maybe that's why he felt he needed to make that distinction.) That article is a painfully dense read, and I don't blame anyone for not making it to the end, but when you finally get to the "6 Hypotheses" that the title teases, you get statements like "Creators don’t immediately grasp how to use Patreon, but with a few concrete examples they come alive and totally get it" and "Creators are afraid of asking for money, &amp; this can be solved with in-category comparables" which feel in line with my experience of them really wanting creators to succeed here, and not just in a little way, but in a "life-changing" way. (And, since this is a payment/subscription platform, "life-changing" would mean creators having financial success, actually making their living, with Patreon's help.) You might still have a different take on this than me. And like I said, I've never talked to this Raviv guy (and the folks at Patreon I do talk to use much more warm and fuzzy language), but at least for me, that article, overall, feels more like it supports the idea that Patreon is passionate about helping their creators succeed than that they care only about their own bottom line. Your mileage may vary. :)

Alex Woolfson

I'm glad this post was useful for you, arcyzo. And thank you for letting me know that you plan to continue supporting me here. I really appreciate that. I definitely think that time and discussion is what's needed here to try to figure out some better solutions. As I said above, I'll be directly communicating folks' concerns to my Patreon contact. Hopefully, something good will come out of that.

Alex Woolfson

I think you make an excellent point with "getting dinged multiple times a month"—now reflecting on it, that sounds both wacky and, frankly, difficult to budget for. I think you offer one good, different way to handle it better. Reading your comment, I also came up with another idea. I think the solution to their subscription model timing problem isn't to charge folks on the monthly anniversary of their individual pledges (which I agree is problematic), but rather to actually give Patrons the option to *choose* the day of the month for all of the pledges to go through. (i.e. "Charge me for all my pledges on the 14th of the month.") Other subscription services offer that option, and for good reason. I think that would solve the bad feelings about being "double-charged" for folks who pledge late in the month, and it would also be an actual benefit to Patrons (if they pay rent on the 1st, maybe it'd be easier to be charged by Patreon after their 2nd paycheck on the 15th.) Also, with that method, all the pledges could still happen at one time, which would hopefully mean that $0.35 charge that is so unfair to $1 pledgers if they are hit with it for every $1 pledge, would only need to be charged once, instead of for every individual pledge. I'll try suggesting that to my Patreon contact and see what she says. We'll see.

Alex Woolfson

I agree that this does seem to punish folks who pledge smaller dollar amounts, as well as those who support multiple creators, and those creators who base their campaigns on "per creation" pledges. As I detailed in my response to Josh above, if I'm understanding what they are trying to do correctly, there could be better, more Patron-friendly ways to fix their concerns with the current payment fees. I'm going to talk to my Patreon contact directly, and we'll see what they say. That said, thank you for letting me know that I'll still have your support if I need to make a change. I really appreciate that. :)

Alex Woolfson

LOL. Yes, if nothing else, they certainly know they screwed up the communications piece. I've already expressed to them some of my thoughts on that, but it will definitely be part of what I talk to them about when I speak directly to my contact. Hopefully, that will be helpful and productive. (And will save creators like me the time of having to write posts like this in the future.) Thank you for letting me know that you're committed to supporting your creators here. This was definitely a bone-headed move on Patreon's part that was poorly communicated, but for folks like me, Patreon and the support of Patrons like you has been life-changing. It's made all the difference for me.

Alex Woolfson

Thank you, Kendall. It was tempting to fire off a response yesterday—like many creators, I certainly had strong feelings about this. But I felt y'all deserved something more thoughtful and nuanced, so I decided to take a day, do some more research, and really try to understand what's going on here. And I'll learn more once I'm able to talk directly to my contact at Patreon.

Alex Woolfson

Thank you for letting me know you'll be staying. I really appreciate that. :) I agree that in addition to the terrible communication (which my contact totally copped to—they know they did an awful job with that), that there seems like there might be a "failure of imagination" about how to solve the payment processing issues they felt were broken. To be honest, I don't yet fully understand everything they thought they were trying to fix with this—and when I talk with my contact, I'm going to try to understand that better—but, as I mentioned in my response to Josh above, there does feel like there could be some better ways to try to solve these issues. I'm going to bring y'all's concerns to my contact, and we'll see what they say.

Alex Woolfson

Hey Josh - Thank you for letting me know that if I need to make a change, I'll still have your support. That means a lot to me. :) I'm not sure Patreon's business model is weak. Considering the explosive growth of the number of creators here on Patreon, it's hard for me to think that a full 5% cut of all pledges hasn't been profitable for them. Unlike Amazon which has shipping fees they eat, etc., this is all digital—how big can their overhead really be? But maybe you have some inside information I don't. I agree, though, that Patrons making donations to multiple creators (or making per-creation pledges) shouldn't be hit with the $0.35 fixed charge for each and every pledge. That's a bit nutty, and feels unnecessary. Vik-Thor's comment below has got me thinking that a better solution to their subscription model timing problem isn't to charge folks on the monthly anniversary of their individual pledges, but rather to give Patrons the option to choose the day of the month for all of the pledges to go through. (i.e. "Charge me for all my pledges on the 14th of the month.") I think that would solve the bad feelings about being "double-charged" for folks who pledge late in the month, and it would also be an actual benefit to Patrons (if they pay rent on the 1st, maybe it'd be easier to be charged by Patreon after their 2nd paycheck on the 15th.) Also, with that method, all the pledges could still happen at one time, which would hopefully mean that $0.35 charge that is so unfair to $1 pledgers if they are hit with it for every $1 pledge, would only need to be charged once, instead of for every individual pledge. I'll try suggesting that to my Patreon contact and see what she says. We'll see.

Alex Woolfson

I'm glad to hear it was helpful, GMark. Thank you back. :)

Alex Woolfson

Hey Danielle—I agree that, whatever their intentions, this doesn't seem well-thought out. Or, at least, they didn't think through the implications. My Patreon contact has actually just gotten back to me after my initial email about this, and she's eager to listen to our concerns. I'll definitely be sharing what y'all are saying here.

Alex Woolfson

I disbelieve. The main reason for us as donors to continue to use this service is that it aggregates our donations to a single unit monthly, and they are pushing to change to a per-donation model. This not only costs us and you more money, but it also means they will make considerably more off the smaller donations. It also dis-incentivizes people who use the 'x for y' model where they pay per work-unit. I'm seeing little reason to believe that they've done their due diligence in terms of cost to creators, and significant reason to believe they're doing basically what Netflix did in 2011: making a bad decision based on faulty projections and poor research. Netflix pulled out of it because their CEO fell on his sword in apology. So far the Patreon guy's just said "oh but it's a sharp sword it shouldn't hurt you much."

Stephen Hutchison

I’d love to believe you about how Patreon is passionate about supporting the creators, but this statement they made makes me wonder: “Raviv explains, ‘We'd rather have our GMV be made up of fewer, but truly life-changed creators rather than a lot of creators making a few dollars.’”

Thanks for talking about this Alex. I'm glad we're on the same page. When I first read about this in the email, I was also less than impressed with the plan. Living outside the US, and with my bank charging international fees, I already pay more than my "$10" pledge, and it varies every month too. Of course, there's not much Patreon can do about that, and I've always justified it as "if I only pay $10, Alex will get a lot less than $10". But this news meant I would only be paying even more, and whilst I can afford it, it does make me consider whether I'm getting *my* money's worth, so to speak. But frankly, I still want to support you, and I still want to get those hi-res goodies, so dropping down in pledges isn't really an option for me. The only thing I can suggest on your end Alex is maybe looking at rearranging the lower pledge levels a bit. Maybe having a bit more choice between $1-$15 would benefit patrons? It seems there's no easy solution to this, it will take time and discussion to work out.

arcyzo

While having the monthly payment taken on the same time each month of when you start supporting a creator sounds good at first, it could end up with the Patrons getting dinged multiple times a month. Possibly even every day in a month, if they support enough creators. And if I start supporting a different creator on the 28th, 29th, 30th, and 31st of December (say) do all 4 days get withdrawn from my account on 28 February? One of the creators I support said that the creators can deduct the transaction fees on their taxes. I currently support 14 creators (11 monthly, 3 per creation). I have no idea when I started supporting each one in a month. I would rather them break it down by patrons last name or screen name. A-G pays on 1st of month,H-M pays on 7th, N-S on 14th and T-Z on the 21st... that way, everyone only gets charged 1x per month, but creators get a more steady payment through the month...

Vik-Thor Rose

I really dislike how this new policy really punishes people who support under $10 a month. Wasn't the whole point of Patreon to allow a bunch of people to give $5 or less to support content creators? Sigh. I'll wait until the 18th to see if they actually do something, but I'm not happy about this and I'll email them regarding it. That being said, my goal is still to support you Alex, so if Patreon no longer is a viable venue for it, please tell us another way to support you. =)

K

Hey Alex, thanks for the note about all this. I don't have any problem paying the transaction fees myself, especially if it helps out the people I'm supporting and that platform that makes it possible. They should talk to you about helping with their communications, though!

Adam Robersmith

P.S. But very interesting and thoughtful message, thanks, Alex! I'm glad you wrote about this.

KendallPB

Alex - I looked over your site yesterday to see if you had a PayPal link (pretty sure I missed something?!). ;-) But I'll stay 'cuz it's you. That said, they seem to be trying to "fix" several things (some unstated or talked around) but #1 bungling it and #2 bungling the communication. The ill will they're generating will hurt them - and creators - the most! And I don't see why any of these changes were needed to make a more normal monthly subscription model work (but then, I've seen a lot of suggestions they use proration for the catch-up month and it seems so obvious. Failure of imagination at Patreon?)

KendallPB

If you move to another donation support system, I'll follow you there. I doubt Patreon will do the right thing here because they probably can't. The reality of their VC funding and their weak business model is starting to bite them. The entire value proposition of a system like Patreon is to reduce overhead by aggregating transaction fees. If I make donations to two creators in a month, that should be just one charge to my credit card and a single transaction. If they do not pursue the most cost-effective way to reduce transaction costs, they will not be able to compete with services that do. And servicing $100M of VC investment means they really do have to find a way to increase their revenue. I wish them luck, but I'm skeptical.

Thanks. Very helpful message.

GMarkC

The extra 50 cents or so won’t break the bank for me, but I think it’s pretty stupid. I assume you guys can set your price at whatever range you want, so i’m Not sure why they’d affix a non optional tip to the pledge. I’ve seen other donation sites that Give you the option to cover the fees with your donation and tell you what it’s for. That seems more reasonable.

KhaosKat


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