Colin's Last Stand, Episode 14: Confederate Traitors Don't Deserve Respect

My take on displays of "southern pride" is simple and personal. Per the freedom of speech and expression we have in our country, I also wouldn't challenge the right of anyone to display Confederate symbology on private property. I'll even go as far as to not oppose a community or city that chooses to do so via the expressed consent of a majority of its population...BUT...I will then never travel to such places (if driving, I will detour around them if I must), nor will I ever visit the home of anyone who displays the Confederate Flag. My reasoning: Although many of the people who do this may not be racist, or hold me in any kind of contempt, I don't have any inclination to pay the price for guessing wrong about that. Furthermore, I will recommend to anyone who asks that such places not be visited by anyone I know and i will tell them why. If it's their right to publicly express "Southern Pride", it's my right to publicly denounce it and in no way defend or even tacitly support it through silence.

Stephen J Seidler

Great informational vid Colin. Finally got some time to catch up. I agree with most of the things brought up in it except the traitors having had things done to them. I'd say at the time, Lincoln did the smart thing and not crucify any of them because he wanted the rift mended. I'd say if any of them were executed the south would of started the war again out of anger. Other than that, great information!

John Barton

I'm not sure of the legality of citizenship, perhaps Colin or someone here has better insight. However, considering that the US did not recognize the CSA as a sovereign nation, but instead an insurrection, I would think that a "confederate" would still be considered an American citizen-for the North still considered the South as a part of the entire Union from my understanding.

Zack E

Colin- I live in Florida and I got into an argument with a family member over this issue and would like you to weigh in. I was arguing that the Confederate men who gave up their citizenship to be in the Confederacy were no longer Americans during the War. An American is anyone who has citizenship to America, which would make any Confederate just that, not an American correct?

Nathan Johnson

Exactly what I've always thought. Why must "southern pride" be synonymous with the CSA or the rebel flag. It's pretty simple. Suppose if the CSA did win, or gain independence/become a country of its own. Would slavery persist in the CSA? Seems highly likely that it would and I doubt anyone could argue against this. The confederate flag is a symbol of racism, slavery, and white supremacy as well traitors. I could care less if you want to fly it or wear it on a belt buckle or have it on your truck. However I find it frankly insulting to our nation when it is flown on state government grounds along with statues of the CSA leaders. The Civil War was terrible. We should honor those who died on both sides. That does not mean we need to honor the leadership as well as the institution of the CSA itself.

Zack E

Easily your best work yet. Thank you for your passion.

I have lived in southern Missouri (leans south) and a northern state that thinks it's in the south, Indiana. I see the CSA flag on a daily basis even in the more moderate and more affluent area I currently live in, northern Indianapolis. I have always looked down on those that display the Confederate flag as I have always tied it back to the institution of slaver as Colin described. I will say I am a little surprised at the disgust Colin has for the leaders of the CSA. I view them as traitors much like the British view Washington as a traitor (both are true), but I also could see the argument that the CSA leaders were men fighting for what they believed in (what they believed in was morally wrong but not to them). I also can see that the northern leaders didn't fight the CSA for all noble reasons either. The North had a greater representation in Congress and likely could have voted slavery illegal long before the war, but didn't. The US fought to retain important territory, resources, and population...slavery was a strategic bet to get the northern population to buy into the long war. Again, I am not pro CSA at all, but I do think if we are going to herald war heroes at all then maybe it isn't so crazy to do it based on skill rather than which side they were on given the war heroes usually were focused on the fighting and not really on the political framing.

Brian Fuller

There was a small penalty for Robert E. Lee and his family. You see, the site of Arlington Cemetery was originally the site of his father-in-law's plantation. Mr. Custis was an adopted son of George Washington, and he built what was long known as Custis-Lee Mansion on the site in 1802. The plantation was confiscated during the Civil War, and became a cemetery. Robert E. Lee, who lived there 30 years +/-, never lived there again, and his wife visited only once after the Civil War. Lee died in 1870. His eldest son sued to recover the property from the government, and succeeded i 1882, but then agreed to sell the property to the government. So, considering the site and its value today, you could say that Robert E. Lee did pay a price for his wartime service. More details are here: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlington_House,_The_Robert_E._Lee_Memorial" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlington_House,_The_Robert_E._Lee_Memorial</a>

While I agree they were traitors. I think your example is a poor one as it doesn't take into account the various economic, social and political issues from ending slavery.

Matthew Kohlman

I won't address everything you mentioned, but when you said they were not traitors because there wasn't an established norm. I'll disagree with that, with a simple example. This is like California leaving the USA because they didn't vote for Trump and agreed with the federal government The country was already founded. And instead of following the current government they decided they would leave and founded the CSA. So yes they were traitors to the great country of USA.

GrisWold Diablo

the listing of traitors was a little unsettling for me mostly because I can't help but think your modern eye is doing an injustice to state of affairs that you're actually talking about. I think you're super imposing something where you really can't. You're first upset that the confederates created division but then you're upset that after the war there wasn't even MORE division created. That is, had these men been put in jail or put to death it would have increased the level of division between the states. I appreciate how much slavery disgusts you, as it should, but let your anger stay pointed on that ideology and less of the people who found themselves caught up in it. I don't know.. I'm expecting this comment won't go over well, but it seems a bit arrogant to see you basically assume you could have made better decisions than, say, Abraham Lincoln who wanted nothing more than to find unity again. Societies take a long time to learn and grow yet they can go wrong over night. I happen to believe history will not look kindly at us and our practice of abortion, but even if we went to war over different opinions (since one opinion is that it's literally the murder of innocent Americans) I would never want us to then retroactively try to punish those who practiced it the longest. So many of these men were obviously members of government and so had these conversation with other members and it seems they just could not ever agree and so it manifested into a senseless war. No one wanted to be killings their brothers but they were caught up in it, just like the citizens of Germany... adding the deaths or severe punishments to these men would only have made matters worse. Were they traitors? I'm sorry but, I don't think so. Being a traitor assumes there was already an established norm, but the fact is that there wasn't. There was difference of opinion. A good historian needs to be able to step into their shoes and feel what that conflict of opinion must have been like. You can't be naive and just pretend any single person on either side somehow always knew slavery was this totally awful thing without any debate (as we can see clearly now). But I think abortion is literally murder and if it came down to it I would absolutely go to war over this believe. I can't imagine any scenario in which that could ever happen, but the point remains, no one could ever shake me from such a deep seated belief about the value of an unborn child. The kinds of questions that surround abortion are just laughable to me. So what if we don't know EXACTLY when it's a REAL person, shouldn't we err on the side of caution? Similarly people debated what exactly it takes for a person to count as a REAL person.. and apparently they thought being black meant you couldn't count.. today we think being too small and in a womb makes you not count. .. my point is just that you can't extract yourself from that point in history and then expect to understand the motivations of these "traitors". Some of these people really did seem to be primarily motivated by the idea of that the state should have the right to decide for themselves on this matter. Just like today I'd rather let states decided on abortion rather than have a federal policy or funding for it... but I digress.. Love you Colin and I hope, if you read this, you can hear my heart in it and read me as a friend who has a differing opinion on this matter.

Been saying the same exact thing when this topic has been brought up with friends and family. Great video once again.

I was thinking this same thing! The entire point that Colin is making about these leaders being traitors that we should not idealized being ironic. Our country is a nation of traitors that declared independence from another country. That succeeded from Britain. But we aren't supposed to acknowledge the southern leaders because they lost the war? I am like many here from the south and from Texas, we do not deny the slavery part of the Confederacy and deny that it is wrong, but it is still a problem today in America that entire sections of the nation, like your big cities and California still try and speak and tell rural areas what is wrong. This can be seen as the Strength of democracy but when Two sides of the map are trying to speak for the entire middle, your about to find a nation split in turmoil

Maybe some more would had died if traitors would had been dealt accordingly. But at least southerners wouldn't be missinformed on exactly what transpired during the war and why it was fought. The great americans divide we currently have wouldn't be here. Education is the key to unification.

GrisWold Diablo

Education failed southerners. Thats the real shame. No one onces to be told they got brainwashed, its a hard truth to accept. Takes generation to fix. The removal of these symbols are a good start.

GrisWold Diablo

Lots of uneducated folks. I grew up thinking that flag was just from a show. If only they were actually treated like traitors. People would know.

GrisWold Diablo

Bra... Fuckin... Vo...

I also fell in love with the Civil War as a teen. I was enthralled by the romantic nature of the hopeless cause the South championed as well as the righteous resolve the North had in smashing the Confederacy to pieces. Sherman's march to the sea was the equivalent of an atomic bomb being dropped down the middle of the South. Not until later did I wipe away my naive view to see the utter devastation our country did to itself. I tried to make peace with the Southern foot soldiers that died for their homeland as I'm sure not many could afford slaves. Yet the stubborn "South will rise again" attitude always rankles me. I get being proud of your home state and the culture but that ugly and brutal BIG part of the Southern story can't be ignored From Jim Crow to MLK's assassination, the Confederacy divided the US and still does. They were not heroes. They were not glorious. They fought to keep an antiquated way of life from dying. The South paid a terrible price as they should have. Grant and Lincoln were pretty forgiving. Too nice but I see that people who lived to see the deaths up close in personal are probably ready to find another way than to continue to punish the defeated enemies. We should never forget our history and we should have the strength to view these relics as what they are. Sign posts to keep us from repeating the same mistakes. Keep them in a museum. But let's all move on as one country. It's long overdue. Thank you Colin 👍👍👍

Bryan Silva

Excellent video, Colin. I am from the north, but lived for a few years in the south and agree with out 100% on the culture and the quality of (most) of the people there. I also agree with you 100% on everything you said about the Confederacy. They WERE deplorable traitors to our country and the result of their actions cost us so many lives, as you discussed. Thanks for giving us a concise and salient video about the topic. Loved it.

Eric Iverson

Colin, I met you a couple years ago --in my now home of Seattle--and I mentioned my Confederate flag shirt. I saw the inherent look of disapproval on your face as you told me "it's your prerogative." I even got kicked out of a bar in Seattle for wearing it, an admittedly funny scene considering I also happen to be black. I wore the shirt not out of a strange display of internalized racism, but to challenge people’s beliefs. I grew up in Fredericksburg, VA where you found the picture of the Stonewall Shrine (I would pass it every day when I left my home.) Sufficive to say, I grew up around the fervent support for the flag, and some of those supporters were bigots and others where my best friends. In my hometown, every, school, road, or state office building seemingly paid homage to confederate generals. As a kid, I wondered why all these men who fought to maintain an evil institution where so highly revered? What’s known to most of America as MLK day, in Fredericksburg, was known as “Lee-Jackson-King” day. How ironic to lump them together with a man that died fighting for civil rights mainly for that same group of people the former fought to be treated as subhuman. It was an extremely confusing dynamic that I'm thankful you touched on again from your old show. I've since retired the shirt as my mom begged me to stop after a group of black men threatened to jump me. I think you did a fine job of articulating why it is a distasteful symbol and highlighting the fact that though they were undoubtedly traitors to the Union, the Union themselves treated them as if they simply lost a gentlemen’s bet and not like the terrorists they were. I think it speaks to the brother-vs-brother nature of the war softening reproach as well as the pervasiveness of racism even in the North. Luckily, I managed to escape the south and now live in the great NW where white liberals are now offended for me. Thanks for your always superior insight. AJ Proud Robert E. Lee Elementary Alumnus

I am from Pennsylvania. So was Buchanan. In school when spent just about a whole year in history class learning of Pennsylvania history and famous Pennsylvania. Who would think that the one president from our state would take a sizable chunk of the class, or at least some dedications to the man in his hometown a few towns over. There isnt. No non history enthusiast knows of him.

I loved this! And I love living in the south but find some things odd or strange - things like the Monument Ave. 'tribute' statues here in Richmond (and probably elsewhere). It just doesn't sit well with me, although they certainly should have a place in the museum dedicated to all of this (like in the one on Boulevard). And Learning about the amount of lives lost during this war was astounding - and heartbreaking. I had no idea!! After reading so many responses to this episode, I also started thinking about how differently we may be taught about 'things' that happened in history - depending on our geographic location. Just some food for thought. It certainly doesn't change what actually transpired but it sure can change a persons views...

BettyAnn Moriarty

I love how passionate you are about this subject! Thanks for the history lesson Colin, keep it up! #CLS 🇺🇸

Austin Tex Perez

Great video Colin. I have a question for you. How do you deal about the statue of Robert E Lee on the battlefield at Gettysburg? There are some lesser Confederate generals as well that have statues there as well. I know it's not the same thing and the battlefields of this war are sacred lands but do you think those statues should be removed as well? I honestly don't know how I feel. I think it may be a different situation than statues outside of city halls and state capitals but wanted to hear your thoughts.

Dan Phillips

Very good video my friend! Here is a little fun fact, My sister went to a school in Florida named after Jeb Stuart. This seems to be a very common thing in the south. The civil war and confederacy is fascinating stuff. I one hundred percent agree with you about the confederates being traitors. I believe they should have been held accountable for. Thanks again.

Just a point of clarification. When you refer to the "stars and bars", do you mean the Confederate Battle Flag? From my knowledge, the "stars and bars" was the first official flag of the CSA. It looked similar to the USA flag but with three strips and fewer stars. Also, you mention that statues have been erected in the South of popular CSA figures. I will add that there are statues of these people in the United States Capitol building. I passed Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee everyday while working in the Senate Chambers. Which is sort of ironic.

William Carroll

I stared the whole time at that Joker painting lol. It's awesome. Anyway, really intresting episode. Learned a few things on the civil war, this topic could make a fantastic - and long -series of episodes for CLS (wink wink).

GabrieleEU

While I agree with the overall point of the video about confederate pride in the modern day is lunacy. I feel there is some nuance lost when discussing the leaders of the civil war. While the politics of what caused the war is clear. The characters that made up the south's futile attempt at staying seceded are either simplified or drastically painted in a light that does not reflect reality. Robert E Lee's characterization in the video is especially of note.

Matthew Kohlman

I would agree with you on this one Owen. I too am a Southerner. I grew up in San Antonio and lived all over the south. As a Texan, I am a part of a group of people who have big egos and I feel Texas pride dwarfs southern pride most placed in Texas. I think in the hearts of most Texans, the Lone Star Flag flyers far higher than the Stars and Bars almost to say "Oh the stars and Bars huh? That's cute" then raises the Texas flag the size of a fucking football field. Very interesting history for sure but I am with Colin on this one and they should cut that bullshit out.

I was baffled to see this flag flying in northern Ontario, Canada.

Prince Borutski

I went to high school with classmates who flew Confederate flags out of the beds of their trucks. Obviously that's their right, but I live in northwest Washington state, so it's hard to believe that a bunch of Dutch farmboys actually understand what they're symbolizing. Supporters of the stars and bars tend to point to the complexity of the Civil War (I'm randomly reminded of Apu's citizenship test from The Simpsons) and that it was caused by a bunch of different factors, but it all kinda boils down to slavery, doesn't it?

Brent Lindquist

It gets into the events after reconstruction as the South reimagined the war and changed the narrative until it became institutionalized in popular culture

Just wanted to let you know I loved the video and you should check out David Blight's book race and reunion

Hey Colin,

I doubt that Jefferson Davis statue they just tore down had a plaque that said "This guy defended slavery, let's remember that for posterity." They're honoring their heroes, and I don't think it's too much to ask that official state properties refrain from honoring traitors.

Brent Lindquist

where is this poll at?

Hose A Contra Razz

I think your point of view of the Confederates, the flag and the monuments are noble but filled with disgust. I get it, they did (and represent) horrible horrible things but the Confederates don't just represent being a racist traitor. The flag doesn't just represent Confederates. And to those dumb Trump supporters who think the South should have won are being very ignorant towards history. But let me ask you: why do you think it's okay for these statues to be removed simply because it can be extremely appalling? Isn't that the point? A realization of the horrible things that occurred under statue of person X.

Our boy Colin M, getting into the nitty gritty, showing off his gold nuggets, is money well spent.

Jeremy Meyer

Hell, 40% of Trump voters tell pollsters they wish the south had won the war. So now it's media shorthand for 'people we don't like,' and a litmus test for the far left to primary house democrats so that we can polarize congress as much as humanly possible.

Jeremy Meyer

The confederate flag is considered a symbol of southern pride by... 20% of blacks, 32% of democrats, 35% of liberals, and 41% of people with postgraduate degrees. The debate's been hijacked by politics, history be damned.

Jeremy Meyer

Absolutely loved this video - as ugly as both sides behaved during the Civil War (because war is inherently ugly) , no matter how noble individual actors in the Confederacy (I'm talking the common grunt) may have been, no matter how horrible the North's attacks on South Civilian areas were, no matter how much we try to pretend the Southern states were bravely fighting for states rights when you boil it down we waged war over some of our fellow countrymen wanting to maintain and perpetuate slavery for their own financial gain. Thank you very much for making this video (not just because I agreed with many of your points and want my bias confirmed) but for not mincing words and trying to tread softly. Thank you also for calling out that Southern Pride is not eternally tied or limited to the Confederacy.

Eric Gee

I'll always miss you talking about video games, Colin, but CLS is fkn awesome! keep it up

I agree with Samuel. When it's brother v brother, you can't have truly unified nation and still call everyone who fought for the confederates traitors. There had to be some reconciliation. Because they were not made traitors, instead accepted back into the union, complacency eventually set in... to the place where we are now. I agree they should not be revered over others and with undue attention, but there are reasons why they weren't executed. If you found yourself on opposite your friends in a civil war today, do you think you could continue a union with this attitude? Allowing them to have their heroes was a small price to pay for peace then..... I just don't get why they still hold to those heroes today.

Luke Farinella

Thanks for the video and content Colin. I disagree with you on this issue, and was glad to hear you hit on points that I expected without emphasizing them (victor writes history; Benedict Arnold). The conflict was terrible and bloody, and execution/life imprisonment of southern leaders would have made the difficult challenge of reintegration all the more divided. They were accepted into the Union once more by the graces and patience of Lincoln. Those that stayed were Americans, and still leaders to those that served the Confederacy. I think its a different conflict than most others given that it was internal, and that it was brother against brother. 1/50 died and many more would have if Lincoln had taken action against the 'traitors'.

Colin, thank you for this video I live in the south and I've been having this argument with people here for decades!

J.S Neveu

As a long islander who now lives in North Carolina, I cannot agree more. I love it here. The people are super nice, the food is great and I love the energy of the place. But I have never understood the reverence for the Confederacy. The CSA was a treasonous plot dedicated to preserving a cruel institution.

Eric Santiago

I also really want a "Keep on learning" shirt.

Owen

Very interesting topic. I wonder what would be your take on the revolutionary war if it had been lost. Wouldn't George Washington and the other founding fathers be considered traitors to Britain as well? Would the American colonies have celebrated them even if they lost and remained under British rule? I just started watching The Man In High Castle and it seems like it'll be addressing a similar take on what would have happened if we lost a major war. Have you done any reviews on that show that I could go back and listen to when I'm done watching it? I remember you mentioning it before and that it's a good show.

Couldn't agree more Colin. Traitors they are.

You make good points Colin, as a Hispanic I see it as flying a mexican flag in the US, this is America ,fly the America flag as pride thats why you left the country you no longer live in. As always keep up the good work

Hose A Contra Razz

Lived in the south (Texas) my entire life. Blows my mind that people think this flag represents "states' rights." I'm very proud to be a southerner. I'm proud to be a Texan. I think we do a lot of shit wrong ideologically, however we also have some of the friendliest people in the country. We also have the best food in the country, but that's an argument for another day. However keeping this flag flying anywhere is ass backwards. I think the statues have a place... in a museum. But they shouldn't be displayed anywhere as a symbol of pride.

Owen

Great video and a reminder of what I'd learned so long ago. Kinda makes me want to read about the civil war again.

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