Sacred Symbols+, Episode 205 | The Unlimited Transmedia Potential of Ashfall
Added 2022-07-07 00:21:11 +0000 UTCWhen Ashfall was announced, many potential players were deeply concerned. After all, the announcement seemed to emphasize its 'web3' connectivity and transmedia potential above all else, and before long, most chatter surrounding the game was about NFTs. But is that fair? Well, I'll let the creators speak for themselves. Please welcome Liithos' CEO Michael Mumbauer and the studio's creative lead John Garvin to +. In our extensive, ~100 minute conversation, we delve deep into the team's maiden voyage, a 'post-apocalyptic' title set in the Pacific Northwest in the aftermath of the Earth's destruction at the hands of out-of-control global warming and unprecedented volcanic activity. Yes: John and Michael have a deep history with PlayStation, leading two internal teams for many years each. And their new project seems to be at least partially inspired by the deep pride Sony takes in single-player story-driven adventures. The trouble, for some, comes with the notion of transmedia and the potential implementation of blockchain or hashgraph technologies. The question then becomes: Are we prejudging something we don't quite understand? By the end of our conversation, you'll likely be able to answer that inquiry for yourself.
Note: This is the Saturday episode of Sacred Symbols+. Enjoy the early release!
Comments
100% agree here and it's what I've been screaming all along. The fact that scalpers exist in other spaces does not justify creating that problem in a space where it is preventable and does not have to exist at all.
Joban
2022-07-18 14:48:56 +0000 UTCTheir counter-argument was "it happens in other spaces though". That's not a good argument for enabling it in an environment where it is preventable.
Joban
2022-07-18 14:47:30 +0000 UTCI went into this with an open mind but yeah, I just think I hate all of it (other than the concept/story of the game itself. NFT’s primary value is resale. Scalpers in real life suck, we are not ok with it, so why artificially include it in digital products? Sure, people bought all the Last Of Us collections but one day, if I still want it, someone will sell one with a banged up corner. Pearl Jam tickets might be high but as the date comes, someone might sell it for cheaper to make sure they get rid of their ticket. There are scalpers in real life but they are still bound to a reality that affects value. NFT’s value is entirely created by the companies. Also, side note, there’s never been a time I’ve watched a movie and wish it effected a game I was playing. Those should stay separate.
Oliver Johnson
2022-07-15 14:01:25 +0000 UTCThank you.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-14 21:40:12 +0000 UTCI think Dustin had some fair concerns and I loved they're counter arguments about scalping. It was a great conversation all around.
Pace
2022-07-14 19:23:07 +0000 UTCIts also interesting to think what if it took it a step further and let you sell the trophies you earned to another player without having to sell your account.
Pace
2022-07-14 19:19:31 +0000 UTCThe Trophy conversation I find interesting as I'm reminded of NieR Automata's ability to buy trophies using in-game currency. Makes me wonder if that really counts. On one hand you "bought" a trophy. On the other, you grinded the in-game currency out to earn the trophy.
Dave Ramos
2022-07-14 02:26:32 +0000 UTCI'm in NYC (unfortunately) and ticket prices are about $26-28 depending on where you go.
Dave Ramos
2022-07-14 02:24:25 +0000 UTCLA and NYC have tickets in that range, no doubt. Seems a bit steep to me, but I live in the south now.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-14 01:09:36 +0000 UTCI’m in Texas. Where the hell is a movie ticket in the US $25?
Stray_Bullets
2022-07-14 00:08:06 +0000 UTCI only know of Defiance by name, I never paid attention.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-13 16:46:07 +0000 UTCThe trans media stuff reminded me of an MMO called Defiance that had a tie in TV show of the same name. I never played it but apparently the events of the TV show affected the game and they would reference each other. The potential issue with trans media projects in the long term is balancing the ease of access for newcomers and rewarding the hardcore fans. Listening to this conversation, I can't help but feel they might have announced this too early. For understandable reasons, they can't reveal much, but when you know you're going to get backlash for incorporating Web3 technologies why not reveal how it works? Instead of saying “Yeah we have NFT’s but we’re not like those scummy cryptobros, trust us!”, say “Hey, we have NFT’s, we know NFT’s have a bad rap, but here’s how we plan to implement them in our game and why we think it’ll enhance the player experience, let us know what you think.” The use cases they’ve suggested like with the comic book example has already been done by Fortnite without NFT’s. You could purchase a physical/digital copy of the Batman/Fortnite: Zero Point series and redeem a code for a cosmetic. The only way I can see Web3 improving on this is to simplify the process by automatically gifting the cosmetic to your account when you buy the comic through the blockchain. Why did I write so much.
Sam Lee
2022-07-13 07:03:47 +0000 UTCThat's interesting. I think the most optimistic thing I can say about the entire situation with NFTs is that it can potentially create value for artists and creators... but I feel like it'll be taken advantage of.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-13 00:50:26 +0000 UTCI think so many people turn to the digital world to escape the very things these gentlemen seem to want to insert into it. Scarcity, scalping, resale etc… I think that’s where the toxicity comes from in the discourse. Who are these Technologies going to benefit more? Me, a laymen, or someone trying to dream up new ways to extract the ever diminishing funds in my wallet? Certainly seems to be opportunity here for the keen amongst us. But for regular people? I guess time will tell. Fantastic episode none the less.
Kyle
2022-07-12 23:52:02 +0000 UTCThank you for listening.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-11 15:13:20 +0000 UTCAlthough I thought his responses to Dustin’s very valid questions were a little salesmen/tacky like, I really enjoyed this whole conversation. I am willing to give them a chance and see what happens. There’s no harm in having an open mind!
Johnny Lamotte
2022-07-11 05:54:33 +0000 UTCI completely agree. I'll tolerate one spin-off, like a comic. Anything more than that, I'm out.
Jeremy Seal
2022-07-09 18:33:17 +0000 UTCTo me, it is a very painful situation to follow all content on different platforms, like comic and series and all other fronts.
Marco Maluf
2022-07-09 04:51:45 +0000 UTCMuch appreciated.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 19:06:12 +0000 UTCThank you for your kind words!
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 19:06:07 +0000 UTCThank you. <3
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 19:06:01 +0000 UTCWell, this gets into what I was trying to say near the beginning: Doesn't an idea need to be planted and demand support first? This seems to potentially be the other way around.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 19:05:56 +0000 UTCGreat addition to the content, awesome guests.
TL
2022-07-08 15:48:08 +0000 UTCThis conversation was fascinating...easily one of the best you've done and that's a pretty high bar to reach, IMO.
Stephen King
2022-07-08 12:23:47 +0000 UTCYou can just absolutely tell that this is LSM and Colin's zone! Great episode!
Clay Layne
2022-07-08 11:51:21 +0000 UTCInteresting episode I’m learning more about blockchain/NFT in gaming but at the end of the day in my opinion if they don’t make a good game I’m personally not going to care what they do with that blockchain/NFT stuff. One concern I have is them trying to implement their game in all different genres of media in the same way as halo. To understand some parts of halo you have to read a visual novel, book and play the games to understand what is going on in the story and a lot of people who just play the games get confused about what is going on. Chris I think mention this in one of the sacred symbols episodes about halo’s story being difficult to understand because the story was in all these different forms of media.
Tyee
2022-07-08 06:35:29 +0000 UTCThank you.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:56:38 +0000 UTCThanks!
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:56:33 +0000 UTCOkay?
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:56:28 +0000 UTCYou are entitled to your interpretation! Thank you for listening.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:56:21 +0000 UTCThank you for your extensive thoughts!
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:56:04 +0000 UTCThank you.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:55:28 +0000 UTCI think it's important to remain open-minded, even though I remain highly skeptical.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:55:04 +0000 UTCWe will update when we learn more!
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:54:52 +0000 UTCThank you! It's much appreciated.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:54:41 +0000 UTCThanks for listening. =)
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:54:32 +0000 UTCThis is a big hang-up for me, too, not in that scarcity with digital goods is bad, but why anyone should buy into it with intrinsic value.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:53:44 +0000 UTCEnjoy!
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-08 00:53:24 +0000 UTCExcellent work LSM-fantastic listen
Kolton Krenzelok
2022-07-08 00:14:19 +0000 UTCThis is by far one of my favorite SS+ episodes yet. You were able to host an incredible conversation with a subject matter that not many people understand. Tbh I was not excited for Ashfall. But now…. I’m super stoked to see what these guys do. Great job guys
Cory Towler
2022-07-07 21:46:10 +0000 UTCFinally a plus episode I'm interested in! Outside of the Quarry spoilercast, plus has been a bust for me lately. Just not a fan of episodes talking to random gamers. Sounds like I'm in the minority though, so I guess it just frees up time for other podcasts I neglect lol.
Josh Kisskalt
2022-07-07 18:58:00 +0000 UTCI was on board and interested in the conversation for a while, but then I started to recognize a lot of public/political speaker tactics over and over again. The classic "I used to think just like your friend......but now I understand" and "I'm a gamer......I'm just like you guys". For me, this always triggers immediate skepticism. Then add onto that, the fact that they seemed to be low key insulting half the population of gamers, turned me against them by the end. For me, they just came across as very sketchy and pretentious. I think some of their ideas are very interesting, but I'm left very suspicious of their character.
Michael Rogers
2022-07-07 18:06:52 +0000 UTCAnother good interview! However, Mr. Mumbauer and Mr. Garvin did not persuade me in the least on the value of these web3 mechanics in a video game. I do think, though, that they recognize they have an uphill battle as far as persuading gamers that there is a worthwhile value-add here. I had a number of thoughts listening to the two of them in this interview: 1) I appreciate that they are giving players the option to play Ashfall solely as an off-chain traditional game. Knowing that I can opt out of all this web3 nonsense if it's implemented poorly makes me much more likely to give the game a shot. It's nice that they appear to be placing the most value on the game, and not on the web3 features. 2) I still have yet to hear any web3/crypto/NFT evangelist clearly explain what blockchain technologies can add to videogames that can't already be done. The example used in this interview was rewarding players if they engage in other transmedia properties (e.g. get something in the game if you watch the spin-off show or read the comic). But why can't they just give me a code to redeem for in-game assets if I purchase the comic/finish the show? To my knowledge, game devs already can reward players with in-game items now, without any need for the blockchain. Also, in this interview Mr. Garvin referenced his old collector's edition in-game items in World of Warcraft, and he said it would be interesting if he could transfer such items to other players and get some value from it. However, I fail to see why this can't be done without blockchain technology. In Animal Crossing, for example, I can go to another player's island, and drop any item or amount of in-game currency for another player to pick up. Nintendo frequently sends players seasonal or limited items in the game, and nothing is stopping me from transferring these limited items to a newer player in the future. Why do we need the blockchain and web3 tokens for transferring digital assets in between accounts? 3) I don't think Mr. Mumbauer made a very good counterpoint about physical collector's editions. Manufacturing and distributing more collector's editions of God of War Ragnarok is just not the same as distributing digital in-game skins/items to players. To do the former, there are tangible manufacturing and distribution costs. If a developer wanted to, though, there is no limit to the number of in-game digital assets they can distribute to players. Edit: Just thought of another "transfer in-game items to other players" example. Even back in Borderlands 1 on the 360/PS3 you could drop a gun and another player could pick it up. You can do this in tons of online games that have inventories. Why do we need to engage with a blockchain token system to transfer items to other players in exchange for other items or in-game currency?
Mike Po
2022-07-07 16:19:38 +0000 UTCThis was awesome, once again great work guys!
O
2022-07-07 16:13:15 +0000 UTCI appreciate that you guys are at the forefront of gaming podcasts in understanding potential positive applications of the technology behind NFTs and blockchain in gaming. It’s been frustrating to listen to the almost cancel culture-infused vitriol that’s surrounded the topic on other popular podcasts, particularly when you consider their categorical misunderstanding of the technology and abject close-mindedness.
Chris
2022-07-07 15:40:33 +0000 UTCIts funny that you felt the hasan kharaman vibes too. I felt it too. Nor from John Garvin but from Mumbauer
DrKen
2022-07-07 13:03:41 +0000 UTCAnother really good interview. I think their positive attitudes towards their transmedia endeavor is going to be key to their success. They seem like great guys. It will be fun keeping an eye on this project.
Mitchell Lundsberg
2022-07-07 12:11:43 +0000 UTCHey Sacred Symbols crew! Finished listening to the episode earlier this morning (UK). Absolutely loved this possibly one of my favourite interviews/episodes along with the one with Gene. Found this really engrossing and it honestly brought Ashfall to forefront of my mind. You guys have been killing it with content for long time. Keep up the fantastic work.
Daniel M
2022-07-07 10:10:00 +0000 UTCI think you'll just get things, like watching Spiderman on release day, randomly while playing. You'll either care or you won't, but I think a maybe majority of people will like to show that off.
FreshKitty
2022-07-07 08:04:36 +0000 UTCFantastic conversation, while I’m not invested in the story concepts just yet I can’t help but hope John and Michael achieve everything they set out to do. Thank you!
Indra Hatton
2022-07-07 06:21:22 +0000 UTCJust finished the episode and loved it. I totally get skepticism from listeners but one thing that stood out from the middle to end, was Garvin isn’t a Hasan Kahraman talking about a concept. He will ship a game, I think. Maybe it’s too early to talk about. It’s also possible committing to it on the biggest PS podcast can’t hurt motivation.
Jeremy Craves
2022-07-07 06:05:37 +0000 UTCHaving listened to the episode- great interview by the way guys- I still don’t quite understand how a game on the blockchain or whatever it is- enhances our experience. I still feel like they’re not sure what it means….
Andy T
2022-07-07 05:12:37 +0000 UTCOne thing I don’t understand from the conversation is why we need to introduce limited quantities of in game items like skins in the first place. The defense for this is well real life is like this already with limited productions of items and I understand that but why do I need that in a video game? Just so I can resale something? I’m not interested in that I just want to play a video game.
Rick the Turnip
2022-07-07 02:49:31 +0000 UTCEnjoy. =)
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-07 01:35:09 +0000 UTCAwesome! Can't wait to listen on the commute tomorrow
Alex Bolton
2022-07-07 01:33:50 +0000 UTCDamn!!! Thanks for the morning drive gentlemen. Carry on.
larry Seitz
2022-07-07 00:51:20 +0000 UTCEnjoy.
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-07 00:44:18 +0000 UTCWhoa, that was fast. I'm excited to listen!
David Portnov
2022-07-07 00:29:58 +0000 UTC=)
Colin Moriarty
2022-07-07 00:26:49 +0000 UTCWhoa! When Mumbauer left Sony VASG, Jaffe wanted Colin on his interview with him! This will be awesome, excited to listen!
KendrickLuck
2022-07-07 00:25:55 +0000 UTC
