Fireside Chats, Episode 84: The Southern Baptist

I completely agree with that. However, I believe that Colin already understood Michael's view or at least most of the fundamentals of the religion. I'm always open to listening to new viewpoints and I also enjoy Colin's conversations with all sorts of people.

Paweł Prędki

Understanding another person's perspective is always valuable, even if you don't agree. Getting someone to see another perspective is--in and of itself--a productive exercise (therefore valuable). Makes you better to humans and as a human. I'm glad Colin doesn't shy away from opposing viewpoints. It's one of the biggest reasons I support him.

Joshua Gallegos

Thank you. <3

Colin Moriarty

Great interview, Michael is a very good preacher - very sharp. Colin didn’t go easy on him with the line of questioning which benefitted the interview and Michael’s message.

Jeremiah Lyne

I hate discussing such topics on the Internet because there's always so much to say and the format simply doesn't help to convey everything :) It's always much more productive to have a real conversation where you can quickly clarify things and avoid talking over each other, which I'm afraid is happening here. The way I organize arguments in my head lead me to the conclusion that faith in the Jude-Christian God is not backed up by anything but the Bible. There are multiple steps there but this is where I end up with. Where does the dogma of salvation by faith has its origin? The Bible. What do the Christians quote when they proselytize? The Bible. There is no Christianity without the Bible. If you keep the oral traditions and other writings you keep part of the movement's history but you don't end up with the same religion. Again, the way I'm stating it here is very simplified but I don't think see a way to explain it all in the comments section of a podcast :) You realize that I never said that dogmatic scientizm is the alternative? I also never claimed that I don't see the atrocities in the modern world? Neither of those are arguments for faith or religion. People are killing innocent animals for food via factory farming. You know what would stop that? Chrstianity! There are wars and genocide! If only they all recognized God and converted to Christianity we would have peace... Oh, wait... As a student of history you can't possibly be claiming that possibly millions of people had been killed in the name of God over history. It used to be a reason (and for modern religious fanatics it occasionally still is) rather than a preventive measure. Or maybe they were not really Christian? Again, simplifying, cutting the argument short, but I honestly don't see a way out. We can blow ourselves up with atomic weapons. True. We were close several times, even accidentally. Take all the technology away and we still break our heads with sticks and stones. Violence and genocide are not consequences of progress, even though we are making it easier. God won't stop it, either. One more thing on the 'science is faith' argument. I don't trust it blindly, I don't need it for 'salvation'. But to claim that progress due to scientific and technological advances isn't demonstrably real, the way God's 'direct and indirect intervention' hasn't been for the past 2000 years, simply doesn't hold up. Unless you assume that this is how God decides to intervene nowadays. Michael, I assume what I'm writing back is also not new to you and your beliefs are grounded despite what I feel are sound arguments against them :) You feel the same. way, calling my reasoning flawed. I'm more than happy to continue this conversation here or on some other platform. I also fear that we're having the same conversation you had multiple times and that people are having constantly both IRL and online and I'm not sure how productive it is.

Paweł Prędki

And it is your right to reject them, which is a cherished tradition born out of the foundation you reject. That's one of the beautiful things about the civilization that has been built over the last two thousand years, the right to one's conscious. You've done nothing to demonstrate how belief in God is, in any way shape or form irrational. Philosophers like Plantiga and Aquinas have shown how belief is not only rational, but even properly basic. Your reasoning here is, as stated, flawed. Scripture isn't the source of these things. The communities of faith whom experienced God, from Abraham and the ancient Israelites, to the Apostles and the early Gentile believers, are technically the "sources." Scripture itself affirms time and again that people are fallible and often foolish. Do the stories passed down, both in Scripture and orally in tradition impact successive generations? Absolutely! But that in no way detracts from the reality of their experiences. Science plays a valuable role in our lives and I am by no means demonizing progress - I'm simply rejecting the dogma of scientism and recognize that history is not an an unrelenting March of Progress. Positivism is a failed philosophy. Science itself is, essentially, the observations of men - fallible, gullible, flawed people, who come to it for a variety of reasons. Your words seem to indicate a certain, we might say, faith in science. Perhaps because you've been told certain stories and experienced certain things that reinforced that belief? I am a great lover of modern amenities (and Bill and Ted are indeed excellent!) and while chronological tourism would be fascinating, I enjoy the age in which we live. That doesn't mean I don't recognize the industrial-scale slaughter and genocide our age has come with or the fact we could snuff out our entire species if the wrong people had a bad day.

Micheal Boudreaux

Thank you for your reply, Michael. It will certainly come as no surprise to you but I've heard those arguments before :) I just don't accept them. The fact that some rational people are people lf faith does not make that faith rational. Sorry to draw such an analogy but I'm sure you've heard of a few funny guys who had been found accused of improper behavior. That doesn't make this behavior funny, does it? You mentioned tradition, faith and lived experience as more evidence of the sanctitiy of the Bible. To me this means people telling the same stories over and over again for millenia. Fallible, often gullible, people. You then mention signs and wonders, specifically 'direct intervention in the world'. What do you mean? You go on to say Scripture, tradition, and the saints. Again, same single source : Scripture begets tradition begets the saints. You keep falling back on the very foundation I must reject. Also the Incarnation of Christ finds its source in the Bible. Another no go for me. The mostly secular, in Western/Central Europe where I live, world is in its most peaceful period. I don't argue that there aren't valuable moral lesson in the Bible or in the Tradition. I'm saying they are not God inspired. They can be found in various texts of many cultures and they don't have to be accompanied by religion. The Golden Rule is something I live by and I don't see that it contradicts the modern way of life. As a lapsed academic with huge love for science I have to say that you seem to be reducing the role it has had on our lives and you're demonizing progress. Despite its many flaws, I take the 21st century over the 1st one. I reject the -isms you quoted Nietzsche as saying. However, God is not on the other side of the scales. I gravitate towards humanism, science and being excellent to each other. See - even Bill and Ted promote the Golden Rule and I don't find them particularly religious :)

Paweł Prędki

Hey Pawel, I can understand your frustrations. Academically studying the Bible exposed me to a wide range of interpretations and views, some of which are quite wild and hard to square with the text or other traditions. Some people who deeply dive into such things end up walking away, to be sure. But to claim that the foundation of Christianity is "simply unreasonable to a rational person" is...well, entirely false. There is nothing irrational about belief in God, generally, or the Christian God specifically. Many if the greatest rational minds in history have held faith sincerely. I would recommend the likes of Aquinas and Anselm from the Middle Ages, while Alvin Plantiga and William Lane Craig are both excellent modern thinkers who address these kinds of issues. The Bible does not, of course, exist in a vacuum. It is authoritative for believers because of tradition, because of faith, and also because our lived experience with the God of the Bible. We ultimately recognize it has holy because God as, over millennia, affirmed its origin and place of importance in the life of the Church Universal and the life of individuals. The answer that God reveals Himself in His Church is a perfectly acceptable answer, though it is not the full extent of the answer. God has revealed Himself through signs and wonders, through direct and indirect intervention in the world, through the record of those acts in Scripture, tradition, the lives of saints, etc. God also reveals Himself through Creation itself. And if course, there is the Incarnation itself, which led to the Church, which is the body of Christ in the world today. That rebellious mankind refuses to accept these proofs and demands more is less an indictment of God and more a statement of our stubbornness. All of that is not a "rationalization" but a recitation of the teachings of Scripture, the wisdom of tradition, and the revelation believers have received over thousands of years. As an academically trained historian, I have to say that the more we've moved away from the foundations laid by Judeo-Christian belief, the worst our global civilization has become. See the horrors of the atheistic regimes of Soviet Russia or the brutality of the reason-worshipping French Revolution. The Enlightenment reduced humans to cogs in a machine, all the better to use and throw away; modernity has attempted to reduce everything to physics and biology (scientism is very bit a religious dogma); postmodernity rejects the very fundamental notion that things are true, or that we can really know them, or maybe just that communities decide their own truths. As Nietzsche said, God has died in the West, and our response has been to replace Him with nationalism, communism, scientism; tyranny, bloodshed, and evil.

Micheal Boudreaux

I used to be interested in religion very much. I grew up Catholic and my wife was a Jehovah's Witness. That all changed when we met and started debating religion. Currently we're both atheist and I started to get really frustrated by discussions with religious people, specifically Christian, as I have the most experience here. There's always so much wiggling around and avoiding the questions. I have nothing against the people themselves and I do believe that being a member of a church can be beneficial to some kinds of people, but the foundations of Christianity are simply unacceptable to a rational person. You can just start at the very beginning - the text that is the basis for it all. There's nothing outside the Bible that grants it its holy status. Relying on it just because it says that it's an inspired word of God is circular logic and should be rejected. It's also full of contradictions that the various Christian sects explain away unconvincingly one way or another. Then you ask a question why God just can't reveal himself and end this vain nonsense he's been into for millenia. That would make everyone but the most stubborn believe and follow him. Less people suffering, less people going to 'hell', more loving Children... Win-win-win. A reasonable expectation on your part Colin. And I'm sorry Michael but saying that God reveals himself in the Church is just not an acceptable answer. It is to you because that's how you rationalize your faith. I'm sorry if I sound so descending but I'm starting to feel that it's not helpful to talk about this subject in such a way similarly to giving platform to climate change deniers. I honestly believe that you are a good person, Michael, in spite of, or maybe because of, your faith. I mean no disrespect to you personally. I just can't help but see that the sooner the Bible and the Koran follow the ancient myths, the better we, as a global civilization, will be.

Paweł Prędki

I really wanna go to those places myself.

Colin Moriarty

Great episode. Very funny that you mentioned about Ken Ham. I actually live in the area that the Creation Museum and the Ark Encounter is. Haven't been to either one but have talked to people who have.

Barrett Boswell

It isn’t a “get out of jail” card by no means. If you’re a true believer you will do your very best not to sin but you will. And with that comes conviction, that’s when you seek Gods forgiveness. But there will be consequences for your sinful actions.

Tyler

I'm not sure he's deluded, but thank you for listening! Glad you enjoyed it.

Colin Moriarty

He did great!

Colin Moriarty

What you're basically saying, Tyler, is that anyone can do anything they want, and then repent, and God is so vain that he actually allows that. It just doesn't make any sense. At least to me.

Colin Moriarty

Thank you! And yeah... I actually think there are many valuable lessons in the bible (particularly the New Testament) that are worth living by, regardless of your ideology or creed.

Colin Moriarty

Harsh, but fair.

Colin Moriarty

You can always count on me to be honest and ask the right questions. =)

Colin Moriarty

I agree!

Colin Moriarty

Thank you. <3

Colin Moriarty

Oh no.

Colin Moriarty

There are obviously some nuances that differ among the orthodox traditions, but the Scripture is pretty clear that good works or being a "good" person in a worldly sense are insufficient to save. Every traditional Christian church agrees on this - if you good deeds were good enough, the coming of Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection would have been entirely unnecessary. There are certainly disagreements on how part your works play in justification and sanctification, but the whole point of the Christian gospel is *you* are not capable of saving yourself.

Micheal Boudreaux

Thanks James! It was a blast for me and I'm glad to see so many people on here enjoyed it.

Micheal Boudreaux

I always find theological FSCs fascinating and Micheal was no exception. Deluded, but fascinating.

Dan Parsons

Micheal Bourdeaux - nice convo. I very much enjoyed listening to you speak.

Colin you said “I live a totally natural and righteous life” so are you claiming to be self-righteous? As stated in Romans 3:10 “none is righteous, no, not one;” it is a constant temptation for us to believe that we can be righteous in ourselves. We try and justify to ourself what we are doing is okay and I’m not “hurting anyone”. That isn’t the case. Comparing a rapist to yourself and see who is going to heaven is simple. If the rapist repents and sincerely asks for forgiveness from God and becomes born again by believing in Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection, he is saved. How is that a turn off for you from God? It is literally a free gift and shows the compassion God has for us, even when we do not deserve it. I thought this conversation was good and Colin I hope you find what you’re looking for. As a person of faith I hope you continue to surround yourself and interview people of the Christian faith. Keep it up!

Tyler

You just need to read the Bible. It clearly states how to get into heaven. Salvation through good works isn’t required to get into heaven. It is believing and accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. By doing that then you should want to do good works. Not for yourself but to help others. With those good works you will be rewarded.

Tyler

Hey Ian, thank you! As I said in the episode, I have enormous respect for Colin and try to imitate Christ in how I treat people generally. There are other podcasters I admire who sometimes discuss matters of faith and...well, they often seem to be overly cautious? I can respect not wanting to offend or be boorish, but vigorous and respectful dialogue is always more satisfying. I feel like we did that well here and that it is a consistent aspect of Colin's work.

Micheal Boudreaux

Great episode! I grew up Southern Baptist. While I don't consider myself part of an organized religion anymore, I still try and live my life based on the principles and teachings of the bible. I'm also really hung up on "Going to Hell" because I was never baptized. I really think being a decent human being should be enough to get you into Heaven when you die. Regardless, thanks for always tackling these nuanced conversations with gusto!

Korey Burns

Elaine - "David, I'm going to hell! What do you think about that?" Puddy – “It’s gonna be rough”

Craig Pelat

As a fellow non-believer (born and raised a forced-catholic, by the way) I love these religious episodes. Michael did a great job presenting his faith and why people like him believe. My stance that it’s all nonsense hasn’t moved an inch, but I respect people who use their faith as a tool/guideline to be a good person. Colin, I love when you challenge the guests, because you all you’re doing is saying what we’re thinking without being an asshole about it. And Michael (I assume you’ll read this), you responded to the challenges in a respectful way as well. Good episode!

Ian (616Entertainment)

A terrific episode. As a non-believer its always interesting to hear the other point of view explained clearly.

Peter Campbell

Really a good episode. I thought Micheal was very interesting and you of course were great too, Colin. It’s really good to hear a conversation like this happen with people who believe very differently and yet it’s still civil and neither is trying to trap the other in some sort of way.

Trent Miller

For the next religious fireside chat I would like to see that pop locking cholo from YouTube <a href="https://youtu.be/gszIO-Nitas" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/gszIO-Nitas</a>

Brandon Hardman

Thank you! As long as people keep volunteering to do them, I'll be happy to keep conducting them. =)

Colin Moriarty

Very good episode Colin! As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses it’s always interesting to hear what other people believe. While I personally have some fundamental disagreements with some of the beliefs Micheal has it was cool to hear them. Hope you continue to have these religious conversations on the show.

David Moran

I'll make note. Thanks!

Colin Moriarty

A bit off topic, I'd recommend everyone watch the movie An Interview with God. I randomly found it on Netflix and it was a pretty good movie. This topic reminded me of it.

Jimmy Valentine

Thank you. <3

Colin Moriarty

Thank you for listening! As far as predestination, I kinda disagree with what you're saying. The idea that the last chapter is written and that it is known means that you have no free will in your story.

Colin Moriarty

My faith in science? The point of science is that it doesn't require faith, because it's about conducting demonstrable experiments and then proving the hypothesis. We know how old the Earth is because carbon dating tells us how old it is. Just like we know the moon and the Earth were one body at one time in the distant past, because we can examine the geology of rocks from both bodies. Likewise, we know humans descended from apes because a.) It's in our DNA, and b.) We have lots of fossil records. It's not that the science, from Point A to Point B, is flawless. It's just that, well, there's proof. Religion provides no proof. So I have to categorically disagree with you. But thank you for your feedback!

Colin Moriarty

Thank you! I want people to tell their stories. Doesn't mean I won't try to fight back, of course. But this show is about other people, not me.

Colin Moriarty

Do I have a problem with Calvinists? No, not at all. The fundamental tenet of Calvinism is a little strange, though.

Colin Moriarty

You just made that up.

Colin Moriarty

Well, I do what I can. =)

Colin Moriarty

Please enjoy!

Colin Moriarty

Incredible! Best Fireside Chat yet! I don’t quite have the same beliefs as Colin or the guest, but the discussion and reasonings themselves were top notch!

Everyday Patrick

Great episode as always. Only a few things I took issue with. First: predestination doesn’t preclude free will. Predestination means that God knows all choices you will make and knows who will be saved. Second: The only thing we know is that salvation is gained via God’s Grace alone. We don’t know who God decides to save or not. It’s entirely possible a non believer could be saved by grace. Last: Most churches take the position that the Bible is true in the ancient meaning of the word, that it’s the message people need to hear, not that it’s a literal factual account of events. Some may be literally true, but factual truth isn’t what you’re supposed to take from it.

Keith W

Colin, I wish someone would challenge your faith in science. You said in this interview "we know how old the earth is." "we know humans descended from apes" etc The thing is we don't, Science is always in flux, always changing. We look back on Galileo and admire the progress, but many of his models and concepts are laughable in the light of what we know now. The nature of science is that we must hold it in an open hand pushing forward for the truth and consistently challenging our hypotheses. Just like Ken Ham is a baffoon for reading his interpretations and assumptions into every aspect of natural science, it would be equally foolish to dismiss any possible explanation that doesn't perfectly line up with the current scientific model. Theoretical science is important but we are fools if we think that we have finally settled on truth. Future generations will admire our progress, but will inevitably find many of our conclusions laughable.

Gen_Lee_Accepted

At one point I was quite critical of Religion, as it was quite fashionable at the time and remains so. At this point I'm pretty disgusted at how our "popular culture" looks down on religion. Only smaller platforms like Colin's would be willing to have this kind of conversation. Imagine, for example, if Vice was talking to this guy. They wouldn't just let him talk openly about his views and the way he see's the world. More likely they would try to bring up a bunch of wedge issues to trap him into saying some "ignorant". My point is: these conversations are refreshing.

CTE

Great episode! Colin, do you have a problem with Calvinists? I happen to identify myself as one. It’d be really cool to have a round table on the podcast between Christians who hold to different beliefs. It’ll really show how nuanced Christianity can be. Your guest didn’t seem to have a good grasp on what Calvinism is.

Michael Cline Jr.

I grew up Methodist and later Pentecostal, but as a Georgia native, Southern Baptists are something I'm very familiar with. Nowadays, I fall more in what is called the Hebrew Roots movement. This will be a fun listen.

Jason Stafford

Hugely interested to listen to this one. I really really REALLY enjoy when you treat us with topics like these.

Lou & Rei Loper

You and me both. In many circles, if you speak with a southern accent you're automatically the dumbest person in the room. I once had a fella tell me that my accent wasn't real and that the southern accent was made up for attention. Yeah, okay, bud. :)

Jason Stafford

Former Southern Baptist here. A huge chunk of my childhood revolves around this. I've since denounced my faith but I still go to church every now and then to feel a bit of nostalgia. Looking forward to this episode.

josh

Look forward to listening to this. The misconceptions about southern people whether it be about race religion or lifestyle has always agitated me. But look forward to listening!

Will Ellis