Sacred Symbols+, Episode 311 | Gaming While Russian: Redux (Video)

India gets its oil really cheap, that’s part of the price cap design. Russia’s selling oil at an extremely low price and sometimes at a loss. That has plummeted their revenue from oil in the last 6 months. So that’s money that they can’t use for weapons and bombs. That India gets cheaper oil, is just a side benefit honestly.

Zorro

I have not been able to continue listening to the show since I heard the discussion on the Nickmercs / Activision debacle. How the topic was handled was inaccurate and deeply troubling to me. However, I can sympathize that with how many topics you are asked to speak on each week you are bound to make mistakes. This is why you regularly make corrections on the show (something I commend). But I was further disturbed when the only time paid to the topic when it was revisited was to speak against those that were disturbed by your characterization of the issue. I absolutely oppose bullying and abusive behavior, and those that choose to express themselves in these ways do a disservice to the seriousness of this issue. However, to leave the conversation at that is, at best, inconsiderate of the other side and, at worst, an indirect defense of exploitative and violent behavior toward children. The fact is this: the problem Nickmercs, and a lot of others (myself included), have spoken of is overwhelmingly the targeting of minors for things like puberty blockers, reconstructive sex change surgeries, public drag shows, public school books depicting graphic sexual acts, and in my home state, the ratification in law of the state holding the right to indefinitely separate a parent from their child if they do not "affirm their chosen gender identity". I understand that this was something that Nickmercs clarified online. What my intention is in writing this is that you will make a correction on the show. I understand the power dynamics at play, but if this show is as impartial and fair as you all claim, then this correction would only be right in light of the kind of ethos you work to maintain.

M

Forgot Panama, assassinating El Salvador officials during Reagan era and directly influencing/funding a civil war in the Ukraine during the Obama era. If anything, the US has AT BEST maintained status quo or, in most people’s eyes, gotten worse globally.

The Rose Experience

Yeah, Colin, it is kinda strange to get “russian perspective” on the matter from USSR born person who doesn’t live inside the country anymore. As a person living in Moscow, I heard a lot of factual things that a blatantly wrong, let alone all the other stuff.

Sergey

Guest is one of those self hating types, think he’s above the people who still live in Russia. Very cringe.

kunsam

Zach, my source about the timeline and about how the US state department cut through the propaganda can be found in this lengthy piece by Politico: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/02/24/russia-ukraine-war-oral-history-00083757

Walt Duncan

Yes I know he has said that. As I explained in the other thread, the events scantly comport with that being plausible. I probably didn’t make myself clear, but he moved troops and blood banks to the border before these starements. You don’t stage blood in the field for military training. The war was decided before these statements.

Walt Duncan

Fair enough about Afghanistan, I just think the evidence is clear that what the US is doing in the middle east is a) very different from like, annexation, and b) different from trying to setup a puppet government. My original point is, NATO only offers membership where it fits and suits its members. Presumably if Ukraine was even remotely interested in CSTO, then there wouldn’t be any cause for war. That was my point, that NATO seems more aligned with what most Ukrainians actually want—it’s not just a trick that the US is pulling. I call the NATO risk a “post hoc justification” because of the timeline, and what Putin said before the war. He moved armies and blood banks to the border, THEN demanded NATO stop expanding in the Geneva summit in January 2022, and then he marched on Kyiv anyway. That timeline doesn’t fit with the fear of NATO being genuine. Instead, he just doesn’t like that Ukraine was choosing to embrace the West, Europe, and NATO. Not liking it is different from genuine concern of the threat. An argument about Putin’s true inciting motivations can be found in this from Johnny Harris: https://youtu.be/LJNtfyq3TDE And furthermore, if his fear is encroaching NATO, then Putin should cease the war now. Finland and Sweden are closer to NATO everyday because of Putin’s war. It’s nonsense to suggest that the war continues to go on for that justification when it is having the opposite effect.

Walt Duncan

Walt here is a NPR article "Russian President Putin, in a video address to his nation, described the attack on Ukraine as an act of self defense." "You know, he railed at NATO's triumphalism after the Cold War. He accused the U.S. of trying to destroy Russia from within. And he said it was Ukraine's ambitions now to join the NATO alliance that had brought the threat to Russia's doorstep." Whether you believe him or not is another matter. It would appear to me Putin made self-defense a point of justification. https://www.npr.org/2022/02/24/1082736110/putin-justifies-ukraine-invasion-as-a-special-military-operation

Zach

Walt, this business insider article says one of Putin reasons for Ukraine invasion was eastward expansion of NATO. "Putin used familiar arguments to justify the attack. He framed it as an act of self-defense against the eastward expansion of NATO and as a means of protecting Ukrainians from "nazification" and a "genocide." https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-threatens-worst-ever-consequences-if-west-intervenes-in-ukraine-2022-2 What source are you using to to assert your claims that he didn't say NATO was a reason?

Zach

Walt. We might be able to forgo the names at this point we know we're talking to each other lol. My opinion would be Afghanistan isn't a great example against, because the US failed at whatever it was we were trying to accomplish there. In an alternate timeline had the US succeeded I wouldn't have been surprised to see Afghanistan eventually joining up with NATO. Russia also withdrew from Afghanistan once and I wouldn't give Russia any positive points for Afghanistan not being part of Russia today. Could you please source me the info you are reading to confirm the "post hoc justification about NATO as a threat" bit. I genuinely would like to read them. I've read a few different statements from US officials in the 90s 00s talking about how the Russians were pissed about NATO expansion eastward. It's not a new thing

Zach

Zach. Your first response to me was to try and correct me (even though I didn’t claim otherwise) that Russia has a security group that is something like NATO. That preceded anything that prompted your whataboutism. My response was, NATO doesn’t grow membership by invasion. Afghanistan is not a NATO member today and isn’t even an ally, but instead is now a sovereign state that does not have anything like a US puppet government. I am happy to discuss the many crimes of US. But that doesn’t justify Russia invading their neighbor, then making a post hoc justification about NATO as a threat.

Walt Duncan

Walt, I have listened to the guest and frankly I don't care what he's frustrated by. He made some asinine claim that if you aren't into politics it's because you're harboring fringe views and trying to hide. Outlandish. You made a claim regarding NATO. I responded to said claim that the leading member of NATO (the US) has invaded countries on thin grounds like Russia is doing now. In the case of Afghanistan and Iraq NATO approved and provided assistance. You're trying to claim that NATO doesn't act like Russia. I'm making the claim that sometimes they do. Generally when I make a claim I provide examples to back that up. Sorry you view those examples as whataboutism.

Zach

I have my differences of opinion about what is more or less justified to do now given the ongoing war. But I think something that this interview suggests that many can agree about is that all of these statist authoritarians on all sides are not to be fully trusted with their games to further their own power. Many actors are not serving their people, and that is worthy of rebuke.

Walt Duncan

Isn’t Max Blumenthal a regular contributor to Russian state media? Maybe he’s right and above board, but please understand those of us who are skeptical of interested sources. Surely you realize our entire culture has to doubt plausible misinformation, in order to make sense of the world.

Walt Duncan

Zach, that’s absolute whataboutism. Have you even listened to the interview, how much your tactic here frustrates the guest? Yes, the United States has done many bad things. I am a critic of many of those things. I enjoy my right to speak freely here in the US, and vote against such bad things. None of that is relevant to Putin invading Ukraine.

Walt Duncan

All of this is a post hoc justification, talking about agreements against NATO expansion in the past. Putin announced his justifications for his “special military operation” in the weeks before the war. It very much was not “we must take these actions to defend ourselves,” but instead was all about the destiny and legacy of Russia as being interwoven with Ukraine. It was downright poetic—which is completely unnecessary if the real justification is self-preservation. There is no need to pretend with euphemisms like “special military operation” if the goal is just defense. If there was any legitimate risk from Ukraine remaining sovereign and maybe some day electing to join NATO, Putin would just have said that. The cold reality is his war is what escalated all of his neighbors—not only Ukraine—to seek accession into NATO. It’s propaganda to force yourself into an existential crisis by invading your neighbor, then complain “look at this existential crisis I’m in!!!!”

Walt Duncan

Walt, the US had a hand in trying to invade Cuba when we felt it was necessary. We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq when we felt it was necessary. We invaded Vietnam when we felt it was necessary. I would also doubt the Chinese are big fans of NATO after NATO bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999. Let's not pretend like our governments are always taking the high road.

Zach

Zach Great. I am talking about Ukraine. No one in NATO has marched into their neighbor to take it. That’s the difference.

Walt Duncan

Walt what are you talking about. They do have their own NATO. It's called the CSTO (Collective Security Treaty Organization) The members are Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, and Tajikistan

Zach

@Rose If Ukraine solely violated the Minsk agreement, show some proof.

Walt Duncan

Just going to share a couple links that give you coverage on this conflict that should lift the veil, especially to those who only tune into CNN/NBC for their geopolitical news. Max Blumenthal in the UN Security Council detaining the widespread corruption of this proxy war alongside the Ukraine: https://youtu.be/Ddc1ix_9MII Podcast on Ukraine joining NATO, what that would mean, consequences of it, why it likely won’t happen because of the escalation and how Russia had already essentially won the conflict when they overcame the economic ramifications. Also, Ukraine is getting destroyed, they’re dying at magnitudes times more than Russia is. If the goal is to exterminate an entire generation of Ukrainian men they’re doing a great job of it. https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-duran-podcast/id1442883993?i=1000619922396

The Rose Experience

Take a long look in the mirror with what you’re saying. That’s first. Second, you’re essentially saying the continued persecution, destruction and murder of native Russians in the Donbas since 2014 has been fine and justified. You also agree with Nazi battalions in the Ukraine army which is amazing. Ukraine broke the Minsk agreement brokered by the major leaders of the West and continued their war crimes in the region. This is what you’re advocating for. Also, overthrowing democratically elected governments should not be in the US’s business and is the DIRECT catalyst for the invasion of the Ukraine. Cause and effect. Everyone in the geopolitical world knew that the minute Ukraine started flirting with NATO membership Russia wouldn’t stand for it, every advisor that wasn’t brain dead in the US stated it would have been a mistake and they didn’t care. Again, there is the next reason as to why Russia is in the Ukraine.

The Rose Experience

I come from post communist country which is neighbor of Ukraine. And yes anything is fucking better than the government they had prior the coup even though it led to war . I guess that's why they are not giving up lol .But yeah when someone just reads random bullshit on internet instead of studying ... .Wasting my time being upset I guess

Daniel Urban

I mean this isn’t remotely accurate and bringing Trump into this is silly.

The Rose Experience

Let’s assume that’s true, fine. NATO gains members by incentivizing states to join voluntarily. Russia could do something like that, but instead Putin continues to perform his “special military operation” as his means to take his neighbor against their will. You’re basically arguing that because my dad lied to me about ice cream after school, that’s somehow exonerating of me burning my family’s house to the ground while everyone is inside.

Walt Duncan

The Ukraine have been aggressors in the Donbas for years and have shelled native Russians in that area, they are not the good guy. They have Nazi battalions in their service and make no bones about hiding it. The United States have lied about this war over and over, they gone against this word over and over, now they’re using munitions that constitute war crimes by their own admission. There’s a recent video in front of the UN by a journalist with the last name Blumenthal, I suggest you watch as its highly disturbing as to the US and Ukraine’s corruption throughout this entire thing. It doesn’t mean that Russia is some innocent party, but there is context in all of this and this notion that Ukraine is good and Russia is bad is embarrassingly naive.

The Rose Experience

It was absolutely said, there is nothing fake about it. This is seemingly an accurate account and even critics agree upon this. Gorbachev wasn’t about to willingly give up that land with no assurances. That’s ridiculous. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_One_Inch_(book)#:~:text=After%20the%20fall%20of%20the,between%20Moscow%20and%20Washington%20over

The Rose Experience

Of course Russia and Putin have a point. Even without the NATO context which is 100% correct and something the US would never stand for, this has been brewing since 2014 with the CIA and UN backed coup of the elected Ukrainian government. Since then, Russians have been persecuted in the Donbas region and have been shelled for YEARS in that area. The Ukraine, prior to 2021 was called the most corrupt country in the world. Zelensky has made other political parties illegal, certain religious practices illegal, jailed dissenters just like Putin and has literal Nazi battalions in the Ukrainian army. They have Nazi regalia, they Heil Hitler and salute, these are not the good guys. Again, anyone that sees good or bad guys in war is just hopelessly naive.

The Rose Experience

Bro take a look in the mirror, this is embarrassing.

The Rose Experience

You have a link to an article detailing these declassified agreements?

Billy Mays

Because I decided to delete it.

Why did you erase your original comment?

Alex

Yeah. Why would a gaming podcast host be talking about a topic as it relates to gaming?

Yea so then why is a gaming podcast host in a Long Island t-shirt talking about it lmaooo

Alex

yeah, this is a little bigger and more important issue I'd say.

Dick Justice

Weirdo.

Cameron Lee

"And at a time of a special humiliation and difficulty for Russia, pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward, when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen, at least in no time soon, I think probably has not only aggravated the relationship between the United States and Russia but made it much more difficult to do constructive business with them. " Not exactly an agreement, but still seems they were done a bit dirty. https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-oral-histories/robert-m-gates-deputy-director-central#download-popup

Zach

I think it's safe to say no one knows the truth in this situation and while Russia was undeniably the aggressor they no doubt had what they viewed as legitimate reasons for it. Personally I think we should stop intervening in foreign affairs so damn much and focus on fixing our at home issues, How are we still the only "civilized" western country that doesn't have universal health care? Why has federal minimum wage not increased in over 15 years? Why are we taking non-monopoly deals to court when there are real actual monopiles that exist inside the US already and?!

Dick Justice

Dude if the only source you can find is some schizophrenic algerian website with 50 monthly visitors you are LOST in the weeds, get help.

Dodo

Nuclear blackmail has been normalized since the 1950s. It's one of the reasons we had a cold war with Russia and not a live one.

Zach

It's Algerian. Der Spiegel is German. Just admit you were wrong and a product of listening to corporate media.

Benjamin Nadeau

Indeed, as late as March 1991, the British were reassuring Gorbachev that they could not foresee circumstances under which NATO might expand into Eastern and Central Europe. As former British Ambassador to the Soviet Union recounted in March 5, 1991, Rodric Braithwaite, both British foreign minister Douglas Hurd and British Prime Minister John Major told the Soviet that NATO would not expand eastwards.

Benjamin Nadeau

Wonder why an article on “jazairhope.org” isn’t included in the history books, very dubious…

Dodo

As the newly declassified documents show, the Russians might have had a point. While it was previously understood that Secretary of State James Baker’s assurance to Gorbachev that NATO would not expand “not one inch eastward” during a February 9, 1990, meeting was only in the context of German reunification, the new documents show that this was not the case.

Benjamin Nadeau

Sony dudes down so bad after ABK they have to talk about the Ukraine conflict, L

Alex

It was first published by Der Spiegel. Sorry if I killed your narrative.

Benjamin Nadeau

Seems SUPER legit my dude😂

Dodo

https://jazairhope.org/en/a-declassified-official-document-from-1991-reveals-the-existence-of-a-written-agreement-not-to-expand-nato-into-eastern-europe/

Benjamin Nadeau

Lol, you two are jokes and relatively dim. Good use of the “I know you are but what am I”. Did you wait for backup from Tyler and now feel like big shit. Because your not and your wrong and just because another trump deranged mouth breather agreed with doesn’t make you right. I’ve had my fun with you two, so take it easy and don’t choke on your tongue boss

Michael Thew

Michael just move to Russia at this point, the way you chew down their propaganda i'm sure you'll fit right in.

Dodo

Hope your willing to bet all our lives on it. Because nuclear weapons as a deterrent has been a thing since aug 6 1945.

Michael Thew

If you are worried about the debt, the trump tax cut was orders of magnitude more expensive than the support we have sent Ukraine. Also I think allowing the threat of nuclear war to dissuade us from supporting a country defending itself from an invasion sets an awful precedent. It encourages and normalizes nuclear blackmail which actually makes nuclear war more likely in the long term.

Tyler Stimson

Btw I don’t think you know what nihilistic means, I do care which is exactly the opposite of nihilism. Use smaller words that you actually know next time, bro.

Michael Thew

It doesn’t matter what we think, it’s what Russia thinks about it. They think there was a verbal agreement with nato when Germany was reunified. What’s your hard on about Ukraine? They paying you, like they did for Hunter and sleepy joe? Fact and point is that Russia puts very little stock in human life and all this money we are given to this country is unacceptable, we got enough of our own debt and problems not to add to them.

Michael Thew

Show me any evidence of that verbal agreement and I’m onboard, otherwise I don’t feel like sharing your nihilistic and depressed worldview bro.

Dodo

I’ll just say this, it was a verbal agreement and it just seems you want a nuclear war. Why do we, US, give a shit about a corrupt fascist country like Ukraine getting folded back into Russia. Just remember when the missiles are launched, that this was the warmongers, Biden and NATO, from the west that did it.

Michael Thew

"They promised to never to expand NATO" Is literal fake news Colin, such an agreement was never made, stop making stuff up about things you clearly have no knowledge on please.

Dodo