SamSuka
shaunfromyoutube
shaunfromyoutube

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The Bell Curve update:

 

Howdy folks! Currently in the process of drawing up a list of revisions to The Bell Curve video. Here’s a few of them so far. Production-wise:

A lot of the images in the video will be replaced for being blurry - these are scans I made that looked fine in my editor but exported all weird. They’ll be swapped out for clear versions, & there will be more of them.

I’ll put in brief pauses and segment titles breaking up the video, & corresponding timecode links in the description.

I’ll post a bibliography & include small cite notes on screen pointing to the sources for quotes.

The audio will be rerecorded and cleaner. Current audio is kind of a rush job. I’ll also fix any pronunciation errors that have been pointed out to me.

Any ms-paint temp graphics will be replaced for better ones, and they will be used more frequently.

Considering not having the skull in the background this time? Maybe changing it for something else. Not sure about that though.

+ Thumbnail, proper video description, credits, etc

Content-wise:

There will be various minor changes in phrasing for the purposes of accuracy and clarity.

I’ll be quoting from the book more frequently in a few places, to better evidence my claims about what it says.

I’ll briefly go into Murray’s newer studies he brings up in the afterword to defend Richard Lynn - turns out one of those is from South Africa pre-end of apartheid, too. Ha

I’m gonna rewrite the conclusion to the section discussing general intelligence, to make more clear the implications for not proving a genetic basis for intelligence upon the overall argument of the book. I will probably also include Murray’s goalpost shifting wrt when exactly the science is supposed to prove him right, which I hint at later but don’t go into. 

Gonna rewrite part of the Lynn section to make clear that he does actually include which norm group he is using in his later book that I quote from, but doesn’t in his 1991 study. I will probably also rewrite the bit about how Lynn transforms the test scores into IQs, as that is perhaps a little unclear. Also might just cut it entirely - that section already has enough proof that Lynn is a hack, & introducing a hard-to-convey concept might end up distracting from that.

I mention health briefly in the list of things that might affect someone’s chance of being in poverty - I’m going to expand on that briefly. 

Going to rewrite where I claim that TBC has several quotes agreeing with my counter arguments to include some specific examples, such as them also paraphrasing Lewontin’s thought experiment.

Going to rewrite where I claim that there would have to be an evolutionary mechanism behind changes in intelligence, as I make it sound like too much of a sure thing that it would have to be a direct cause. I shall make sure to mention the indirect possibilities.

There are tons more points of criticism that I do not go into for either time reasons or because they’re too complicated - I might briefly mention these in the outro.

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Thanks for the feedback so far. I’ll be adding to this list over the next couple of weeks, so there’s still plenty of time to add anything you think will be useful.

Comments

This is very much not a major point and I hope it wasn’t just a joke that went over my head, but you refer to the SAT a couple times as “the ‘sat’ test”—I’ve only ever heard people call it the /es eɪ tiː/ test. I really liked the video. I can understand what people are saying about the length but I’ve always treated your videos like audiobooks and listen to them while I’m doing other stuff, so I prefer the longer videos, but I’m probably in the minority there and vote for whatever’s easiest for most people!

hill

I thought you explained Lynn's bizarre transformation of test scores into IQ very well. Not sure if that was just me but I didn't find it confusing.

Monstromax

This video is quite an accomplishment. You deserve the vacation! I might be in the minority but I prefer one longer video.

Maddie King

a kinda less sad image related to racist science (skull measuring etc) is a sunflower seed as they were used to measure the volume of skulls but yeah.

I think it's abslolutely a good point, that's why Shaun's "Fate of the frogmen" video where so good and in some way ascended the subject matter. Bringing in the personal aspects and expierences gave understanding for (some) of the people who belive in this stuff. And most compelling pieces of film need a clear emotional core. It's a very good video and i also respect if Shaun does not wanna go with this angle for his video

I think you should leave in the bit where you talk about how Lynn comes up with the IQ scores from the test results. While there’s definitely enough evidence to remove any significant credibility he has, I think that part was what really drove the sheer egregiousness of the whole thing home to me. I also don’t think I found it particularly difficult to understand either personally I think you did a good job explaining it. This is all just me though so idk! It’ll be good either way

Aless

This might be out of line, but Shaun, I remember you mentioning in another video that when you were younger, a lot of your identity was tied up with intelligence. It stuck with me because I was much the same. Again, I apologize if this is out of line, but I think it would be worth considering linking your personal experience to this video IF such a link exists. I might be imagining it, but I know from experience that TBC has a strange pull on young people who feel isolated and frustrated and were pathologized early on with IQ tests. Especially people our generation. The reason I bring it up is because a personal touch like that would do a lot to brighten up a pretty dour subject matter and make it relatable. I have absolutely no idea if that's something you're even going for, but it would do well for the #engagement. Just a thought.

Clementine Danger

It's so weird, my first reaction was OH NEAT IT'S REALLY LONG :) Not that either of us is wrong, different people like different things, but for me the length was a bonus. Buuuut I do have a feeling that most people will not be on my side with this.

Clementine Danger

Ha, I love that! Just sneakily keep adding more shit and NEVER address it.

Clementine Danger

Keep the skull, but stick of pair of calipers on it.

Hambone Fakenamington

keep the skull

dm

I second VoidBurger a bit on this, while the chapter markers are helpful, it would be far less daunting released in parts. At least for me.

dm

I have a silly opinion.... but: I went to the Bell Curve vid, stoked to watch it, and went "OH NO IT'S REALLY LONG." :( So I haven't watched it yet cuz I'm busy and don't have a super long chunk of time to devote to it right now! I think there's a real benefit to splitting up long videos into digestible parts, but maybe that's just me! A multi-part series would be less daunting for viewers and also be more ad money, if you care about that. Long, long videos are also difficult to recommend to other people, even if the video is crazy-good. Looking forward to eventually watching it when I have the time!! <3

VoidBurger

Keep the skull

I finally had the time to listen to this video over the weekend and I thought it was a very well done, extensively investigated piece and a well delivered rebutal. Bravo. In the hopes of contributing a little bit I have a couple of minor pointers and one bit of criticism: 1.During the part where you were talking about the AFQT scores and you show the plots from inequality by design, you mention that IQ is only 60 percent heritable, and thus partially determined by the environment (which is what the other factors were measuring). I think this is a very important point that highlights the flawed reasoning of the comparison, but is very difficult to understand. Maybe some extra visuals might help here? Or an extra sentence reiterating how you're comparing iq to something which also contains the environment (you had a sentence mentioning something like this earlier). Right now you spend only 1 sentence on this. 2. The piece about the influence of the environment on evolution of cognitive ability might be best left out. Mainly because the environment does not play an as big of a role in evolution as is commonly assumed (also, I think it is not as important for your overall point). The most important factor in evolution is population size. Because of this, even minor detrimental mutations can become fixed in the population. Therefore, because the current population size of humanity (7.7 billion) is much higher than at any point in history, evolution is evolving along way different lines than it did 200k years ago. This is based on my reading of the book "The origins of genome architecture" by Michael Lynch (chapter 4). In the book Mychael Lynch argues that, because of how mutations are transmitted along generations, a large part of the mutations that become fixed in the population (fixed changes are responsible for species evolution) are neutral. So the phrase "There has to be an evolutionary mechanism that was leading to better cognitive ability in that group" is false. There doesn't. A lot of evolution is due to the accumulation of stochastic changes with a neutral/slightly detrimental effect that by chance became fixed in the population. A mechanism that is called 'random genetic drift'. This doesn't mean environment plays no role, it means environment is not the only effect. 3. Very very minorly, (just so I have more points to contribute) around the 15:17 minute mark you missed the word "protected" when quoting from Lewis Termans "The uses of intelligence tests" 4. Also I agree with the other commenters that some sort of TOC at the beginning with timemarks would be hugely beneficial. 5. One thing to consider might be to summarize all the arguments against TBC at the very end of the video. It is a very long video, I had to view it over a couple of days. So at the ending reiterating some of the earlier points might be useful (for all the forgettable people like me). I do like your very last phrase btw, 'and if you like it, you're a dickhead'! :-) I was always taught that the ending phrase is the most important :-) 6. For those that are more interested in the topic maybe include a 'furhter reading' list? With things like the mismeasure of man and inequality by design. 7. Lastly, you mentioned pausing your patreon for a month. If by that you mean, making no videos and taking some holiday, by all means go for it. If that means pausing the money transfers, why do that? Working people take vacations as well right? Wouldn't the same apply for Patreons?

Adeoxymus

Heritability, maybe a cartoon of the plants in the different environments? For the folks who find words alone a bit hard to remember?

On the skull image, I think for this video you could have some symbols of racist science like calipers, measurements, different skull shapes from other cultures (cranial elongation stuff) popping up every now and then. I personally like the skull image for your videos but if you don't want it for this one, it's understandable.

Just wanted to chime in and say I’m very appreciative of how much work you’re putting into this project. I really found the rough draft of the video incredibly interesting throughout the entire run time. I’m looking forward to your revisions and learning more about this topic. Thanks again for all of your hard work.

CJ Hitchcock

Trimming a bit here and there to help with flow would be a good idea, but at the same time, everything you talked about was well worth the listen. So if you end up cutting out any sizeable chunk, please consider offering them as addenda.

AkselA

Please don't get rid of the skull! It's one of my favourite things about your channel (besides the amazing content and your voice of course)

I have some questions: - about 22:00, while talking about the Emergence of Cognitive Elite... did they provide any decent proof about it in the book? I watched the video through but I did not notice that proof or lack there of is mentioned. It's possible my attention slipped. - at about 23:00 it is said that that H. and M. calculated to what degree is high IQ related to positive outcomes and low IQ to negative life outcomes. If that really was their approach, isn't it a methodological flaw? - about 28:00 you're quoting saying what' lead to "disaster" but I don't understand what is that disaster. It dawned on me when I was near the end of the video that they might describe creation of cognitive elite as that disaster but I'm not sure. Is it? - regarding poverty and socioeconomic status, I haven't read Inequality by Design so I'll put the link on "Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function" (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6149/976) just in case that it wasn't covered in the book. And the last question, I'm not sure it needs to be answered in the video, or my attention slipped again and I missed the answer: do you think that the authors intentionally propose social policies that would speed up creation of cognitive elite?

Ivana

I'm neutral on the skull thing BUT I demand an answer to the greatest unaddressed question: how are you spending your paid vacation?

Clementine Danger

To be honest I thought the skull was a joke at their expense. Pinko skullman here to defile your precious values and whatnot.

Clementine Danger

Didn't know that pressing enter on mobile posts the message. The more you know. Personally I like the skull, but I understand the desire to scrap it for something else.

#SaveTheSkull

Controversial opinion maybe but I think the skull needs to retire. a) it makes your videos look like podcasts and b) anytime the right wing youtubers respond to your videos all they ever talk about is the skull (e.g. Dennis Prager).

Levi Reeves

Maybe you know about it already but I found an interesting study showing that IQ isn't static over time; when you are poor your test score drops, and when you are rich your test score goes up! They show this by IQ-testing a population of sugarcane farmers in India that earn most of their annual income in one big swoop after harvest, so that they are rich one half of the year and poor the other half. The very same population had a mean IQ-score significantly higher during the rich period. I think this is a good argument that members of well-off groups may score higher because of their well-being - they may not be well off because of their IQ-score. What comes first..? ;) The study is called "Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function". More information on this link: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6149/976%20 There is also a TED talk about it: https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash

Perhaps you could put section titles along with the skull image (similarly grey on black) in the background? That way, throughout a section, the title would be visible on-screen, rather than just once at the beginning, as with title cards. It would make navigation easier and reinforce for the viewer where they are in the video. With such a long piece, structural elements are welcome. (Good video, obv. Liked the last section particularly.)

Rachel Anne

This is weird but I really feel like three seconds to say 'even if they were right about certain groups being disadvantaged in society, the instinct to hurt rather than help ought to be called out' idk. Somehow to me one of the most offensive things is their reaction if they were correct. I realize this isn't actually a way of taking them down, just want to express it.

jpVari

Brilliant, looking forward to the updated version. May I ask why you're considering removing the skull this time around, and what you would have instead? It's your call either way, but I don't see a problem with keeping it on. It's a seal of quality in my book - and my book isn't The Bell Curve, fortunately -, plus you're allowed to have a tiny bit of branding. It's Shaun's critique of The Bell Curve, so let it be Shaun's critique of the Bell Curve :).

Toberu

"Considering not having the skull in the background this time?" Kinda chuckled at this one. I hadn't considered the potential phrenology feel for anyone watching this particular video without being familiar with your channel. Why do racists have to put a stink on so many otherwise innocuous things?

Daniel S Cicala

I like the thumbnail, it lets you know the books a shit show. Thanks

Sounding really good can’t wait to hear the final product!

Aless


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