The Smoke Room Build 34 (WIll): "A Hundred Visions and Revisions"
Added 2024-05-04 20:48:51 +0000 UTCHey folks, this is George. The team has been working on restructuring Will's chapter 3 for a good while to make it mesh better with the tone and the timing of the animatic. Scenes with Todd and Marcy have been restructured to be before and after the stag. I also added a good deal of new writing to fill in the missing choices from the prior update.
I still intend to do a little more pacing adjustments for the public update, as well as including some new cg's for certain new scenes, but that will have to wait for now.
-Writing By George Squares
-Editing and copywriting by George, Kardamom, and cafealopex
-Illustrations by Kardamon
-Teaser by solosolosolomon
Links:
PC:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NDqgeX-tIdAfSBsSYAFWVU-FDFE7HTV2/view?usp=drive_link
Mac:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k5_H6kgMTO0j3rFAsLsf4DMzCJYGwBqk/view?usp=drive_link
Linux:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1a4bWmvdeiZh3qc9BloeTpFwtIE1MVJw0/view?usp=drive_link
Android: https://www.mediafire.com/file/bigiycie0ionhrv/TSR_34_-_release.apk/file
Comments
So if you are not the one who is able to post things to the patreon then my previous posts do not refer specificaly to your person. I hope my words reach right person. Because this project begins to rotten and that is sad. Maybe i will be blocked someday, but I must say what I and probably some other people feel. Something must be changed. I DO care about this project that's why I'm here.
Balbina Was
2024-07-23 18:21:21 +0000 UTCI don't disagree with you! However, I am not the one who is able to post things to the patreon. Please do not shoot the messenger! I manage one of the many projects for EP and turn in my work and communicate in a timely fashion. Nothing was late because of a holiday.
George Squares
2024-07-23 16:03:37 +0000 UTCI believe that people supporting the project on Patreon should AT LEAST be informed about the project's plans by ANYONE, REGARDLESS OF WHO IS CURRENTLY PUBLISHING, BECAUSE THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE SPENDING THEIR MONEY. TO SUPPORT YOU!!!!!! SOMEONE MUST MANAGE THIS PROJECT!!! I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WAS NO ONE FOR ALMOST 2 MONTHS WHO COULD SPEND 5 MINUTES AND WRITE AT LEAST "WE ARE NOT PUBLISHING ANYTHING THIS MONTH BECAUSE, E.G. WE ARE TAKEING A HOLIDAY"? IT'S INCREDIBLE THAT I LEARNED ABOUT THE UPDATE FROM WEBSITE X FIRST. BE MORE GRATEFUL TO THE PEOPLE WHO DONATE THEIR MONEY TO YOU. I'M ENOUGH OF THIS TREATMENT!!!
Balbina Was
2024-07-23 15:00:13 +0000 UTCHello. I don't have patreon access so I generally just post updates on my writing accounts on twitter and bluesky. I've been asked to stagger updates between months in case other echo project stories would be posted so it's not just TSR content. Nik route's first ending just published the other day.
George Squares
2024-07-23 00:22:58 +0000 UTCI wish that official project announcements happened more often than once per 3 months and not on project writer's Twitter first. It shouldn't be that difficult to post progress reports monthly in Patreon and projects Twitter.
Andrew
2024-07-20 10:03:13 +0000 UTCJust saw a thing on twitter from George that a new update is coming soon. I assume it'll be here shortly, but yea wish they woula kept us in the loop
FlurryBC
2024-07-19 22:55:04 +0000 UTCI guess it is about time to abort this ship. I'll stay for few more days to check for atleast note from Dev. If nothing changes i leave after 3 years of supporting this project.
Balbina Was
2024-07-18 19:50:10 +0000 UTCSo, any news on what's happening?
Darkus Night
2024-07-18 05:49:56 +0000 UTCThey’ve skipped months In the past, though I admit it would of been nice to get an update on stuff in June. Personally I’m hoping that the reason for the wait is that they’re working hard on the first khemia build and it’s gonna release this month. (let me dream)
Taco Muncher
2024-07-03 04:45:21 +0000 UTCEveryone has their struggles, but cmon give us anything, it's been 2 months since last post.
Andrew
2024-07-02 08:52:00 +0000 UTCSeems like it
Stanislav
2024-06-16 03:07:42 +0000 UTCAlso after the night at the stag, it seems like I’m sent back at the house with the rat lady and she goes through labor again and back to the confrontation with Cynthia and William.
Animus
2024-06-11 06:29:23 +0000 UTCJust wondering is there a yes option for when Will tells the truth to Nik? When the three of them are together in the woods?
Animus
2024-06-11 06:12:30 +0000 UTCNo updates this month?
Andrew
2024-06-08 19:36:27 +0000 UTCSeeing just Nik makes my day 100% better
AL
2024-05-16 20:47:41 +0000 UTC"Missing context" seems to permeate to more areas of the route than i had previously imagined... William is still my favourite, and i believe in the potential of the route, it only needs a bit of tweaking. I want it to be the best, and i know it can be ❤️
ABC
2024-05-14 11:38:38 +0000 UTCIt's also kind of a choose your own adventure story approach with fail states and alternate endings, too. So, there is an element of gamification to it too that isn't -just- linear narrative storytelling.
George Squares
2024-05-14 08:07:25 +0000 UTCYeah the Greene was just an example. I don’t know the entire thing so I can’t give any actual suggestions until the game is finished but I still do think my point stands. I completely get why the characters care about what’s happening but I’m talking about us the players. We don’t have the history that the characters do and so it lacks any emotional weight. It’s well done in other routes where we learn to care as much as the characters but in this route we are missing too much context in my opinion. Again I think it’s good from what you’re managing. this stuff is hard asf. Mystery novels are notoriously hard to write it’s one of the hardest genres and you have to add a dating sim context to it.
GojoSimp
2024-05-14 05:47:56 +0000 UTC@gojo Eliminating the greene storyline would elimate the motivation of a character you don't know about who also ties heavily into murdoch route events. So I see where you're coming from but I don't think you have the full picture yet. These characters care about the murders because it's people in their communities that they've known for years. Like, Blithe and Melissa are PoV characters dealing with the fallout of these murders in murdoch route. Todd and the women in town care about a lot about Marcy. The community as a whole is being affected even though Sam in particular feels a disconnection.
George Squares
2024-05-14 01:04:57 +0000 UTCI see what you mean, and yeah it does sound interesting, if a bit of an unrealistic dream... Who knows, maybe stuff like this will be something the writer will be interested in doing later? We can but hope for the best. Edit: In a way i think it would be beneficial for Will´s route, seeing as it´s gonna be the last to finish anyway, to be put on pause until the other three are completed, if only for the writer to be able to finish it without pressure from the others. Maybe that way these fixes would have the time to be addressed?
ABC
2024-05-13 14:37:10 +0000 UTCIt’s definitely much more work but I think the entire story would profit much better. There is a concept in writing called kill your darlings. it’s a concept that basically means to cut out any unnecessary storylines, characters, and sentences. Elements the creator have worked hard to create but that must be removed for the sake of the overall story. adding a scene or two would help with will personal story and his growth with Sam. But overall the route would be lacking. Instead cutting out everything unneeded even if it’s likable and replacing it with things that stay on the theme and plot of the route would enhance every aspect. For example, (now I don’t know how this is going to end so this might not work at the end of the day) But what if instead of the Greene’s being an entire plot, we make the family that all of this happens to be Kane family? Kane father is the one that got killed. That after having Kane his mother decided to never again have kids after the way his father treated Kane. Kane hides this fact at first, they have different fur patterns because he died his fur and shaved it in a way after running away from home. Kane comes back to echo and is looking for the killer because this is his family, it’s not just for money. This gets revealed chapter two or three and Kane and his mother could have a reconnect of some time after Kane sibling gets aborted and it’s a whole tragedy. Obviously I’m not suggesting this happens but this would make Kane role in the story much more important, he would obviously take much more action in a lot of scenes and make us much more invested. Instead of him just being some random douche bounty hunter. I just think that if this route is going to be as good as the other routes it needs a lot of work to balance everything out.
GojoSimp
2024-05-13 14:25:46 +0000 UTCI agree with a lot of things, honestly. Even if Wiliam is my favourite character, i see the merit in many of your criticisms. I guess that could be another way of fixing the Kane scene too. Making it so it would make sense that Will doesn´t care about giving a bj to either Sam or Kane by writing Kane to be closer to Will prior to the encounter and Will being comfortable around him. That would be fine i suppose, but it also would need way more work to fix it this way. It´s way further than just giving Will and Sam a couple of scenes and new dialogue, but it would work.
ABC
2024-05-13 14:03:09 +0000 UTCI don’t think Patreon has one, only to the creator. but I can just type it here. It’s pretty long 😭 The thing with will route is that I don’t know what it’s about. Like not talking about the mystery but just in general. I can’t really connect a theme or purpose. It feels like all of the characters are just bumbling around waiting for shit to happen. Like comparing it to Clifford route. (Don’t read if you haven’t played it but I assume you have) Clifford route it is very compact. There are basically only three subplots happening. Samuel is trying to run away, The colonization of the Meseta tribe, and a giant monster attacking them. Because it’s focused in it allows every character to feel important. Even the side characters. Tsela is the main view on the tribe and its culture because he has a strong sense of his culture. He doesn’t like getting colonized and fights back outwardly against it Yiska is more passive and so he shows more of the indoctrination process, literally having to watch him get his mouth washed with poison soap just for speaking his native language. Avery is the doctor which is obviously needed, but even he goes on a revenge arc. I was so suprised and excited when we got to see that. These three are not even the 4 main characters but it doesn’t feel like they aren’t important to the story. You can’t cut them out without losing something integral. Compare this to the will route and I legitimately think that you can cut out Todd from the entire story and it would not matter 😭. Like I like him, he’s a good comic relief but he legit does nothing important and he’s one of the main characters in this route. It feels like each character is just bumbling around while Will does the work. I don’t really understand the plot besides let’s solve mystery! and there is zero reason to care about these murders or mystery’s. In Clifford route we care because number one, we care about Samuel getting caught and executed. Two we care about the colonization and literally have to uncomfortably watch it up close. Number three if we don’t care about the monster we are all gonna die. It’s an instant hook. But with will, Samuel murder gets covered fairly quickly. And so now we are just running around solving the mystery’s of the town because…. Will the sheriff. It’s not even like the town has nice people in it, echo is ass. The route just doesn’t give us a reason to care and we are going with the motions. It’s a mystery, so we are not supposed to know exactly what’s going on. That doesn’t bother me cause I’m sure everything will connect eventually. What does bother me is that we are three chapters in and there is genuinely no reason to care if will solves the case or not. If I were to give any suggestions to this route it wouldn’t be about the romance honestly. It would be that there needs to be more of a reason why we should care about these mystery’s and let the characters be more important or kick them out. I’m always of the opinion that if a character has no purpose being in a scene then they don’t need to be there. Perhaps if the route focused more on what’s the point of all of this then it’ll also help the romance subplot as well. Deleting scenes that don’t matter gives time for more development. making Kane and Todd have more of a role could help when they do hook up with Sam and Will. Make it flow better. And I’m not trying to be hyper critical or anything. Writing a fun mystery is hard. Writing a fun multiple choice mystery is even harder. Writing a fun multiple choice mystery in a dating sim is crazy and I think this route does really good with all of the stuff it’s juggling. but I do think it is lower quality than the other route and would need a lot of tune up to match its quality.
GojoSimp
2024-05-13 13:49:54 +0000 UTCI´m not sure if patreon has DM functionality but hey, if you wanna say something i will be more than happy to read :)
ABC
2024-05-13 13:35:07 +0000 UTCI do agree with that. Todd really does not need to be here 😭. I don’t think Samuel is completely absent, he holds Will down and starts kissing him but I do wish he was more involved throughout the entire thing. I was honestly going to type my problems with the route being unfocused after this cause I didn’t want to have two conversations at once but I think the bigger problem is that Todd and Kane are both kind of irrelevant.
GojoSimp
2024-05-13 13:32:52 +0000 UTCI didn´t mean to say he´s a corrupt or bad cop that uses his power like that, but he *does* have power over the town and it´s people to some level. He is the sheriff, he is the paw of the law in this town in the middle of nowhere. I would agree about the Kane thing... if Sam was involved in the situation too. Like, that would be the minimum i feel. But again, that´s not what happens. Sam is with Todd, and Will is left to his own with Kane. Sam is barely involved after they enter the barn. Again, there´s many ways to fix the situation, but the situation*does* need fixing, in my opinion.
ABC
2024-05-13 13:29:16 +0000 UTCI disagree a policeman is a public servant, or at least it should be. Nowadays it’s not and people join for power trips but will doesn’t act like a person who has this job to have control. He doesn’t bully his way into things like someone with that type of mindset would. he much prefers trying to manage other people expectations and wants. I mean he says it himself that he’s good at listening to orders cause he’s an officer. But that besides the point, I think you might be focusing too much on Kane then. I said it in this thread but Kane feels like a conduit in this scene. It’s why I said that this feels like the Samuel and Kane non poly route. He’s not doing this because he’s comfortable and trusts Kane, he’s doing it because he trusts and is comfortable with Sam. I don’t think he’s letting go of the shame but more embracing the shame because Sam is there. He only does any of this because Samuel specifically asks that is what he wants him to do. To me Kane is just a douche Sam and Will are using to help in that goal.
GojoSimp
2024-05-13 13:22:15 +0000 UTCI don´t think Will has an issue giving control to others, he has difficulties letting go of his own because of his self hatred. I agree that what you say is also true, but i don´t see why both things are mutually exclusive. William has issues letting go of control AND issues controlling his urges. It´s the crux of his internal debate. It´s exactly why he would become part of the law force. What does this job give you exactly? Control (or the illusion of it at least). It´s why he´s a good detective. The bj is a perfect example of what i mean. What doesn´t make sense is that it *doesn´t* matter to him wether it´s with Kane or Sam, because it *should* matter to him, at least initially. All the things he did: marry a woman, have a child, listen to his father... They are things he did because he is a man both honorable and torn. He did those things, yes, but he hated all of it. He is honorable, or at least he tries to be. In the end, i just don´t understand why Will would be this comfortable with a stranger with these things he´s shown such issues with in the past. He has years and years of trauma behind him, which are only starting to heal after he spends more time with Sam. He does feel shame, immensely, but he chooses to let go of that shame with a stranger instead of with the guy he trusts the most? It just doesn´t make sense to me. It´s asking too much. It´s too big a change to accept without the things i´ve mentioned. It borderline breaks the character. I gave an example of the game of thrones lady, and how people percieved her change. People *could* 100% see her becoming evil and the big bad at the end, but because the writing was missing heaps and heaps of context, everyone hated it. I think William, with this scene, is in a similar boat (not as big, of course lol) Again, i do not want the scene gone or itself be changed necessarily. I just want that context that is missing to be added to explain why Will is that comfortable in that situation where he normally would not be, at all.
ABC
2024-05-13 13:05:21 +0000 UTCI understand your point. But I also think you might be putting your own preconceptions of the character into will. Hear me out. I agree that Will has a problem with control but I think we are thinking about it differently. Correct me if I’m wrong but you think Will has a problem giving control to others. I thought it was like that as well but after replaying my opinions has changed. Now what I think is that his real problem is that he hates that he cannot control himself and his own urges. It’s the body vs the mind. With your way, yeah I think it’s out of character. But if you think about it in that it’s mostly about himself then things start making more sense. Why a person with control issues would listen to his dad and have a kid, why he would become a sheriff where his job primarily consist of managing other people wants and needs. I don’t think he actually has too much of a problem listening and not being in charge. His issues deal with self hate. That he cannot control himself and his body and his urges. And so going back to Kane. The problem isn’t giving control to Kane. The problem is wanting to give a bj in the first place. It doesn’t really matter to him if it’s Sam or Kane, it matters that he wants to do it and he hates that he wants to do it. I think the development path is him learning that he can’t control his feelings. Which is why the switch is less shocking to me. Because yes I agree that he hasn’t been slowly trusting others with intimacy. But what he has been doing is slowly trusting himself with things that he likes to do. I suggest going back to the Sam and will scene in his room with this context in mind. Before I views this as Will trying to show Sam how it sucks not being in control and why he always has to be in control. But now I think it obvious that Will is massively projecting in the scene and is trying to show Sam how he feels constantly. How he feels shame over his needs and wants. And then after when Sam doesn’t feel ashamed or bad about it I think that was a necessary chunk in his armor. Which flows better into the Kane scene.
GojoSimp
2024-05-13 12:44:46 +0000 UTCYou can go to previous TSR posts where i´ve left comments in the past to read more in depth my opinion, but in super short, William is characterized as a deeply traumatized person, who has much difficulty letting go of control, specially in intimate scenarios, but that barn scene ignored all of it. I am not saying Will couldn´t end up having that same scene the way it is, but he would definitely have to, at the very least, *try* stuff with Sam first (by that i mean try stuff where William is submissive to Sam). Sam is very much the only man he would even start considering doing this with prior to the barn scene, not only because he´s the one man he´s starting to trust with intimacy (not just sex), but because of what doing that in the open could mean for him. This context is missing, the mental development of the character to arrive at a point where he is comfortable doing what he did is not there. At the very least, if this scene happened the way it did without alterations, previous William would be extremely paranoid after the fact, or would have interrupted it. He already was when he was alone with Sam in his house, imagine how he would be if he did it with multiple people in a public place. (Also wanna take a moment to clarify that my issues are never with the investigation side of the route. I understand it is an ongoing investigation and imo it cant be judged until its concluded. My issues are entirely character based.)
ABC
2024-05-13 11:14:04 +0000 UTC@ABC If I could ask, in your opinion what do you think the character of Will is about? And why the scene goes so strongly against his nature?
GojoSimp
2024-05-13 10:42:08 +0000 UTC@ Gojo I think it might feel unfocused just for now due to it being in the middle of a mystery where not only are you picking up clues but you can make wrong investigative choices. I want the mystery component to feel fun and challenging when it can come together at the end. So part of it is also trying to balance gamification elements of the vn format with a solid golden age mystery structure.
George Squares
2024-05-13 09:57:22 +0000 UTCI am not saying William being attracted to Kane is out of character, i am saying that William doing what he did and acting the way he did that night, with the context we have, *is* out of character. William and Kane having a NSFW scene together was something everyone was expecting to happen at some point, but people didn´t expect it to happen the way it did. I don´t mind the scene at all in theory, it´s the practice that killed it for me. I don´t think the issues can be easily solved with a single scene, but hey, maybe a couple could? At least the biggest issues with it could be addressed, imo. The point is is that TSR is a WIP project, and that fixes could come at any time, so there is still hope. I also agree that the new Nik branch is missing context to make it work well, though, but it at least doesn´t actively go against the character of William. And again, WIP, it could always become better. As much as i want to distance myself emotionally from the character, i can´t. TSR came to me at a critical time in my life, so even if i can´t love William the way i used to, i am still gonna want his route to be the best it can be.
ABC
2024-05-13 09:43:04 +0000 UTCTo be fair it’s not that hard to get Samuel and Will points lol. It was honestly much harder to get the nik and Samuel scene then the Kane scene. Although I disagree with ABC. I honestly felt that will suddenly loving nik was much more jaring to me then just being attracted to Kane. Again Kane reminds me just as the dirty douche frat boy college girls wanted to sleep with to just say they did it. Something stupid but something to look back on. Although after playing some other routes today, I think this route just has some writing flaws overall in my opinion. It’s not something adding a singular scene could fix. The route is pretty unfocused but to explain would take a whole other long post.
GojoSimp
2024-05-13 03:01:59 +0000 UTCI'm not sure if I agree still since you get the full context if you have almost full will and sam points. I somewhat suspect some people are looking at the code to access certain scenes and skipping story changes and scenes. You don't even have the ability to ask kane anything if you don't have those points.
George Squares
2024-05-13 02:03:02 +0000 UTCSomething really obnoxious about the itchio page is you can accidentally delete threads with one click without it asking "are you sure"? >_> But yes, thank you for the review and the reread. I told people at the time that there was just a lot to write for these portions and I didn't want to drop a 25k update in one month since it isn't fair to artists and coders. But I'm glad more people are understanding they were only seeing parts of a bigger picture now.
George Squares
2024-05-12 05:13:34 +0000 UTC(This is a long comment.) So I made a comment about the build on itch.io yesterday which got replied to today and was recommended to play the recent build on Patreon as it fixes a lot of my problems. I do support this project and these games and so thats what I did and I was going to go back to add another reply, and I found that the comment is gone. I don’t know if it got deleted or anything but I decided to just give my review here instead. Anyways… Yeah it did fix a lot of my problems. The build on itch felt really icky to me, like it was about peer pressuring will to be submissive. but this revision feels much better. Everything flowed together much better. To to talk about the specifics The don’t do anything stupid route doesn’t have any cg’s which I’m assuming will be added in later but it was really sweet and it felt way more in line with will as a character. This route seems to be going to a polyamorous relationship. Now I’m not poly so it isn’t for me, but it was cute. It was a little jarring to me to see Will say I love you to nik in his head when I myself barely interacted with him but I still liked to see it. I don’t really have any criticisms. Kane route was def much much better. Again before it felt icky, but now it kind of felt like two friends deciding to sleep with the douche for fun and to just party. The scene where they were laying on the hay was really cute and it felt much better overall. This is just my personal bias but I’m glad that will isn’t turning into a sub masochist bottom and he’s just a switch. I commented on it before but the way everything was worded it felt like the entire character switched to be about letting go of control and becoming a bottom. This one def felt more like the message was he should stop worrying about the past and he should just have fun and be himself. which I assume is more what you were going with. I didn’t think my hate for Kane could get worse but oh boy it did haha. But again it felt like sleeping with someone you know is bad just to do it. It still feels a little ooc for William to go that far, but with the pacing of them talking about it the entire day now, as well as the word choice they used being better and more focused, it didn’t feel icky anymore which was my main problem before. My only criticism is that right now it feels like this is the non poly route? Which I prefer and it means I have to make will suck this stupid wolf to get the route I want.😭 /jk If I’m being for real, I think it is a little odd that both routes lead to a 3 or more orgy and there isn’t a path where it’s just Samuel. But again, thats probably because I’m not poly or anything so I’m just not into that. It doesn’t hurt the story. I can’t wait for the next update, I wish this game the best in development and I really hope that Kane gets his comeuppance. I wouldn’t mind him getting made to kneel in return haha 🤭
GojoSimp
2024-05-12 04:39:50 +0000 UTCA big -ish, if you ask me
ABC
2024-05-08 12:09:44 +0000 UTCMight be an issue with just my tablet, but same as with the previous Android build the videos during the Stag scene still won't play - I see a black screen instead.
Andrew
2024-05-08 10:36:01 +0000 UTCWill survives! The shooting in the crowd of miners seemed like a full stop to the entire story. Also, the Kane business is far better handled, with Will's position understandable(- ish)
Worraps
2024-05-08 06:21:10 +0000 UTCIf i knew this was the level, i wouldn´t have engaged in the first place. You clearly did not understand what you were reading.
ABC
2024-05-07 10:03:46 +0000 UTCIt's not against you if you are worried about that. Point me to another comment that want Will route modified and I will also give the a piece of my mind. I think that the context that you think is missing is already there, Will opens up to Sam and Sam helps Will get a little bit of himself that was denied when he was young with someone he likes (IF you decided to go in that direction) therefore is unnecessary to add or ask for changes or additions. If you don't buy *any* of the things that are literally written with words and need things to be spelled out, that is totally fine. If the VN takes that direction, then my critique would be that the whole story feels a little under the nose and the nature of my comments would be different. I can tell you that for me (and many others) that is how the scene reads. Speaking of not buying *any* things ( Quote: He also struggles with a crippling self hatred regarding male relationships which make him unable to let go of control during intimate moments, aka, his brain literally wont let him become submissive.) Where did all came that from??????? Where is this remotely implied? I quote sentences from the novel itself and you find that hard to buy and is me projecting yet this totally comes out of left field. Of course nothing is gonna make sense if this your point of reference for the character of William. Can you actually quote Will or Sam or anyone to make that conclusion??? He hate himself when having sex with men??? His brain doesn't let him be submissive???? If you really think that's how Will thinks, there are actually 2 OPTIONS that you can choose for that (Fat chance if you think I'd lift my tail, AND I'll be calling all the shots if anything happens.) and you will not get the Kane scene naturally. You are not being consistent. If you focus more on Will than Cliff because you like character more... I get that, sounds reasonable. Again, don't take this personal this is not against you. You voice your idea that the route needs something extra in order to be recommended. I voice mine saying that it shouldn't and I am doing this pointing out weaknesses in the arguments I see. If you point me out to another comment saying that the route needs to be modified, I will do exactly the same. Again, I stop calling you passive aggressive if you read my past response, it didn't make sense to me that the reason you gave because you obviously commented in updates where spoiling was not an issue. You are not passive aggressive. If you find any incongruency in any of my responses I encourage you to respond. I just want to hammer down that non of the reasons that you gave are necessary to suggest a change in the route. More so because now we have options, for both of us.
for88883
2024-05-07 03:27:28 +0000 UTCThis sounds rather personal on your end, and this is hardly the place for the apparenly long discussion you want, for some reason, to have with me. I do not want to change the scene itself, and i have no idea why you keep insisting that is what i want. I simply want for the context that is missing for that scene to make sense for the characters involved to *be there*. That is all. I do not buy *any* of the things that you are typing there because they require such a level of personal interpretation and projection for the reader to buy them that it just is not enough for me and many others, hence the criticism. That is what is missing, the character context, which again could be easily added in a future scene that could take place previous to the night in the barn. Will is a loyal guy, and the person he is interested in is Sam. He also struggles with a crippling self hatred regarding male relationships which make him unable to let go of control during intimate moments, aka, his brain literally wont let him become submissive. For the scene with Kane to make sense with the William we have been following until that point, that needs to change *prior* to it, thus my idea of having Sam and Will have a scene just the two of them where Will starts to learn to let go. That is all. It is not the most elegant solution, but it´s the most efficient, i reckon. And yes, i have my own set of issues with Clifford´s route, but as i wrote before, it is William who is my favourite gay character, not Cliff. To be quite honest, Cliff is the character that least interests me in TSR, so naturally i don´t follow his route as closely. I´ve probably read William´s route about five or six times now, and Cliff´s only the one time. If and when a scene with Cliff goes awry the same way William´s did, i will gladly support the fans that politely give constructive criticism and feedback as long as they are peaceful about it, as i am trying to be. To be honest, i still don´t understand you and you seem to be having a very emotional reaction to me specifically for some reason. I do not care that you believe me about me wanting to be careful of not spoiling Kane´s scene or not, to be quite honest, and i have no idea why you keep calling me passive aggressive when i´m being as direct as i can when presenting my arguments. Is it maybe a language barrier issue? This will be the last time i respond because, again, this isn´t the place for this kind of discussion. Edit: you dont know me, or my experiences. William speaks to my own too.
ABC
2024-05-07 00:01:38 +0000 UTCYour argument doesn't hold up. You censor Kane's name in build 33, a build that has already moved on from that scene .But sure, let's call them constructive criticisms then, I concede that point to you because from my point of view you are being passive aggressive but that might be just my point of view (Keep in mind "point of view" , will come again later). I am here because in a comment section you can voice your opinion about comments, Just like you are voicing yours and just like others have voiced disagreement with your opinion every time you talk about Will's route. Did you asked those people why were they engaging with your comments also? You are supposed to engage in a comment section , that's what is there for and I am also here to voice my opinion just like you. I also don't care that you care about the NSFW scene. I care that people are insistent on changing the story that resonated strongly with a lot of people, me included. It baffles me that people think that William stops being his own character, after he is talking with Sam when they gets intimate, how he is asking how much shame there is when a man finish in you, How pain and pleasure some times starts to blur, how he wants to give a middle finger to the people that tell you what is right or wrong. Then talking to Sam outside of The Hip about his father and all the fear that he had to endure to the point to accepting being in a straight marriage denying his own identity. And when he is with Kane remembering his father in the moment he was denied to be with a male partner, he has the perfect opportunity to give him that middle finger, and goes onward , and then the Kane scene starts. If you think that Will stops being himself in between any of this parts then as much as it pains me you weren't able to relate to the character and that's fine, it is your POINT OF VIEW and I am not here to change that nor make you feel what other people felt when reading that update. But for people that have been in a close/ similar situation, the character felt pretty damn consistent to us. Now we have choices for the sympathetic and non-sympathetic to Will in that situation. And you are still telling me that you are going to be soooo mad that that option exist even you you don't choose it??? Insanity. Are you also this insistent with Clifford's updates then? When you have an option to not oppose Yiska literally being punished for talking Meseta. 2 different Clifford's and outcomes. Do you have issues with that to the point on commenting in every update that that choice exist even if you don't pick it?
for88883
2024-05-06 21:34:19 +0000 UTCLove the new CGs <3
Cotton
2024-05-06 17:30:32 +0000 UTCYes, they literally were constructive criticisms. At least i tried making them that. And i censored Kane´s name because at the time the update was very recent and i didn´t want to spoiler people. Why are you even here? I didn´t ask anyone to agree with me, not even the author himself. It´s not that i don´t trust you, is that i have absolutely no idea why you are even engaging here. I am simply giving feedback in the most honest way i can about a thing i, and many others, find to be a poor narrative choice. That is it. I do not care that William and Kane have a NSFW scene in the slightest. I care that, during that choice, William stops being his own character and suddenly becomes someone else. That is what i care about, the character writing. I love choices in VNs, but if one choice has a character do that then i´m gonna have an issue with it, even if i don´t pick it.
ABC
2024-05-06 10:35:18 +0000 UTCNik and Sam's faces are so funny in the art lol
Rye's Creatures
2024-05-06 06:44:33 +0000 UTCIf you tell me that the comments you have posted saying, how you wish non of the characters were ruined, having to censor the name of a character you don't like and how this route is not worthy of your recommendation are not passive aggressive. Fine, call them constructive criticism then. I have also spoken with folks in person and social media and they don't have an issue with how the route is written. People don't like things and I have found a group that agrees with me, big whoop. You could say the same about me. I found people that agree with me and don't thing Will's route is "not worthy of recommendation". You are missing the point though. Have you Choose options that you and only you (And the group that agrees with you) might think how the character of William "Really" is so you (and the people from the servers you visited) don't feel that anyone is forcing you to be with " **** ". I know you don't trust me for whatever dumb reason. But really, you might be pleasantly surprised. We have options now, options are good for the people that agree with you and agree with me as well.
for88883
2024-05-06 03:31:39 +0000 UTCWell, you seem to have confused what i wrote for passive aggressiveness, when i have been nothing but direct and not at all aggressive. I am not sure i can really trust the word of a person that would misunderstand that, and i even wonder why you would even write it in the first place. And no, this is not an issue with me and only me. I have spoken with many people in many different servers about it, and they all agreed. If it was an only me thing, it would at least be easier to rationalize and move on, but it is clearly not. The idea i suggested is just that, an idea. There are a number of ways that the situation could be fixed, the simplest one being what i suggested, as it does not require any further touch ups necessarily, only a previous additional scene, which could even be advertised on social media and that i am absolutely sure people would love and would potentially give more eyes pointing to the VN, etc etc. But i am sure that if it were to be revised, something better would be written. I am being direct and honest when i say i can´t recommend this route, but i can the other three. I don´t know what else to tell you.
ABC
2024-05-06 02:20:08 +0000 UTCHonestly, have you tried the other options on this build? Choosing options that you and only you might think how the character of William "Really" is so you don't feel that anyone is forcing you to be with " **** " . You might be pleasantly surprised and stop saying this passive aggressive things like they are doing and amazing job on the other three routes and not this one.
for88883
2024-05-06 02:07:13 +0000 UTCI will say that both choices aren't necessarily wrong options. They just lead to different outcomes.
George Squares
2024-05-05 20:36:51 +0000 UTCWilliam deliberately says No with no option for saying Yes when Nik offers to be polyamorous with Sam. I wonder if it’s a deliberate locked option that completely contrasts Will’s mindset when compared to the orgy with Kane instead. Will being distant relationship wise and duty bound versus giving in his own desire and happiness.
nickyg95
2024-05-05 19:09:33 +0000 UTCNice update. Love the restructuring for Marcy’s story and getting to see more of Todd. Very intrigued to see what Kane’s gonna do with a sheriff’s badge. And I love the poly angle - felt so proud of Nik just going for it.
PupTree
2024-05-05 18:10:20 +0000 UTCOk I maybe cried a little when I decided not to do something stupid. Thanks, George.
Lance Leoghauni
2024-05-05 17:32:25 +0000 UTCWOW. OKAY WAS NOT EXPECTING THAT TO HAPPEN. THANKS FOR THE UPDATE THOUGH
Node
2024-05-05 06:54:10 +0000 UTCJust recently started with this incredible game! I've since finished Nik's route and I'm currently in Cliff's third chapter, and very much loving every part of every scene I've read through. Can't thank everyone enough for making such a phenomenal reading experience. Got my husband and our best friend to watch/play along, too, and we're even using the setting for a Call of Cthulhu tabletop RPG set in the West we all play together! It's a perfect setting with the horror themes! Very much looking forward to exploring the other characters' stories, as well as eventually checking out the other games this project has put out. Again, thank you so much for the work on such a memorable game. The last VN I played was Morenatsu back in its heyday, so to get me interested in a new VN takes considerable effort. Suffice it to say, this game has hooked me from the start.
Furlock O'Donnell
2024-05-05 06:35:43 +0000 UTCI had yet to start William's route for fear I'd need to replay everything, so this is a load off of my mind, too! Thanks!
Furlock O'Donnell
2024-05-05 06:32:15 +0000 UTCAlrighty! Will do, thank you so much!
Sora Dez WolFox
2024-05-05 04:18:45 +0000 UTCDefinitely would recommend starting at the beginning of chapter 3, yeah.
George Squares
2024-05-05 04:18:13 +0000 UTCYesssss!!! Thank you so much for the update!!! I'm so excited to read! I got a question tho, and correct me if I misunderstood, but you said you guys kind of re wrote some parts and added new content as well for chapter 3? Do you recomend reading the whole chapter from the beginning again?
Sora Dez WolFox
2024-05-05 03:13:19 +0000 UTCOkay, sorry for the confusion. Patreon was showing you as not a support for some reason.
George Squares
2024-05-05 02:50:36 +0000 UTCAgain, i do not agree with the people who said that about the scene, but that is not the criticism i have been offering. I am glad to hear that the change is something that is still on the table though. I´m not a professional writer (i´m still an amateur), but i genuinely think a scene of William and Sam doing something intimate by themselves where Will is learning to be the submissive one would be enough to save the moment. It would make sense for Will, as he´s a loyal man who would, at least at first, try to stay "faithful" to Sam before Sam encouraging him to explore his sexuality with more men than him. This wouldn´t fix everything of course, but it would definitely help with the most important issue, William acting out of character during that update. I have a lot of respect for what you have done for TSR. A couple years ago i found FVNs, and TSR alongside Adastra completely changed my life in my darkest moments. Everything i have said ever since the scene released has been exclusively out of love. William is not just my favourite TSR character, he is my favourite gay character in fiction, period... Or at least he used to be. I genuinely think the Kane scene was not developed enough to fit with the rest of his route, and if it was revised in the future you don´t know how happy it would make me. It would be perfect. Also, i *am* a supporter! I have been a patron for the Echo Project for almost two years now! I honestly thought only patrons could comment under these posts. I really love TSR. I´m not blind, i can see all the shit that goes your way on social media. I just want to beg that please, just take this one criticism into consideration. That´s all. While i can´t in good conscience recommend people read William´s route as it is, you are still doing an amazing job on the other three!
ABC
2024-05-05 01:17:49 +0000 UTCThere was nothing honest about the lie that it was a nonconsensual scene which caused waves of harassment before some people even got to read the scene for themselves. Yes, general edits for various scenes will continue. Bad faith criticisms don't help anybody though. (Also-- you might want to support the patreon if you're commenting on a non-public build. It's only three dollars monthly for multiple projects.)
George Squares
2024-05-05 01:02:56 +0000 UTCI remember you mentioning a few months ago that it was something you guys might look into during revisions after the VN is complete. Is that something you are still thinking of doing? Also, there were many people giving serious, honest criticism of the scene. Me included. It sucks to see you not consider any of the honest comments that me and others have been offering for more than half a year at this point as serious. Like, i understand you got some mean spirited comments, but i would hope that in such a long amount of time after the scene first released you would´ve been able to discern the shitposts from the real criticism and feedback.
ABC
2024-05-05 00:46:12 +0000 UTCHope you have a great time reading. :)
George Squares
2024-05-05 00:44:42 +0000 UTCNo, I addressed the serious comments, like the concerns about tone and pacing around Marcy's scenes and the Animatic.
George Squares
2024-05-05 00:41:33 +0000 UTCDoes this update do anything to address the issues people have been presenting with William´s route, and specifically, with Kane´s scene every since it released months ago?
ABC
2024-05-04 23:54:55 +0000 UTCI'm so excited!! I'm always too impatient while waiting for TSR updates! Even my husband knows, when there's a new update for TSR, I'm not going to be of much use to him until I've finished it. 😸
Shadow Wolf
2024-05-04 21:34:56 +0000 UTCYeeeesss!!!!!!
Toradama Wiid
2024-05-04 20:52:41 +0000 UTC
