Alley Box - Buffy the Vampire Slayer || 3x17 || Full Reaction

Not sure if its been clarified or not, but i think that buffy was onto faith to start with... from willow getting into the mayors computer files and finding them empty, to hiw faith acted at the demon’s house. The demon guy the mayor met with and hired owed a debt to giles and when he was summoned by the mayor he went and told giles. Giles and buffy got him to do a fake spell, and i believe buffy didnt miss angel at his house - i think she saw angel before faith did and they made the plan... its all very secrety and clever! A fav of mine this season!

Holi117

2020-11-26 19:12:10 +0000 UTC

Just another minor tidbit - the “Miniature Golf” conversation was unscripted, so Eliza’s confused look and giggle was genuine as she didn’t know it was coming. Joss liked the way it worked, so it stayed.

Trisha Griffin

2020-11-06 13:36:59 +0000 UTC

I'm only three minutes in, but imagine a relationship where one person is ok with the other not being truly happy lol I'd love to know if "Shrouded Man"'s spell/chant/ whatever actually meant anything in some kind of legit language since it ended up being just a "light show" and not a soul extraction.

Dusty

2020-11-06 04:53:44 +0000 UTC

This is a great episode in some ways, but I’ve always felt that the switcheroo plot twist was a little TOO much of a twist. To this day I’m not entirely sure when Buffy, Angel, and Giles kicked off their scheme. I get that the demon guy took the Mayor’s request to Giles because he knew Giles and owed him in some way ... so it was sort of a favor him ratting out the Mayor. But how soon was the actual plot to fool Faith in motion? And when did Giles for one go from knowing Faith had done bad and lied to him about it ... but trying to rehabilitate her ... to suspecting that she was working for the Mayor. It’s a little cloudy.

Andrew Pulrang

2020-11-06 02:23:16 +0000 UTC

I never said it was a healthy relationship. I did put in the evil kind of love caveat. I don't want to say any more as it will get into spoiler territory and I don't want to do that for Alley but I kind of see if like Mafia kind of love. Sure you are family, sure they love you. Until you screw up or betray them then it's cement shoe time.

TheEvilSmurf42

2020-11-05 17:10:23 +0000 UTC

Lucky Giles, up to his neck in tea :D

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

2020-11-05 12:00:24 +0000 UTC

Yeah, I've actually been super happy she's been watching the non-HD version. Especially for Season 3, episodes like Helpless need that darker visual tone to work, and the HD version just lights 'em up to a ridiculous level.

Paddy H-K

2020-11-05 10:47:19 +0000 UTC

Yeah this is all my head canon, too

Paddy H-K

2020-11-05 10:45:09 +0000 UTC

I kinda love this episode because it has so much Faith content, and kinda hate it because of how hurt Buffy is at the end. Faith and Buffy are such a dynamic pairing. You never know what direction they're going to bounce off each other, it's so much fun to watch.

cheekyhobbit

2020-11-05 10:09:18 +0000 UTC

She said she cut her tongue on his vampire teeth and they were like "uh you don't have to use your tongue" because she was 17 at the time and new to these kind of scenes, and David was like "no it's okay" which ... is a bit weird.

cheekyhobbit

2020-11-05 10:08:10 +0000 UTC

Alley should open a karate school with them moves

Britt

2020-11-05 06:37:32 +0000 UTC

Fun fact - this was the episode where Doug Petrie's Lesbian Subtext Operation was thwarted. He scripted Faith to kiss Buffy on the lips and finally it was like "... hey, wait a minute I see what you have been doing with your episodes!"

Dan H

2020-11-04 23:55:15 +0000 UTC

This episodes had a lot of highlights for me, Alleys shock when the gamble is revealed, her really funny attempts to karate chop Faith through the screen, The Mayor and Faith interactions, Willow in General :). Though is growing a little tired of the " oh no I saw them together so something must have happened but instead of talking about with the person of confronting I'm going to take off so I don't have to know" cliche. That bugged a bit and does in all other shows and movies but othen than that glorious episode and awesome reactions as always. Keep up the good work

Isac christensen

2020-11-04 21:20:42 +0000 UTC

I think it's worth mentioning that part of Angel's curse/torture is that he is forced to remember everything he ever did as Angelus. While that is horrible to think about, it does allow him to tap into those memories to "fake" being Angelus in this episode, and helps remind us that this is not a man who can ever just be a happy-go-lucky kinda guy. Also reveals why "even a moment of pure happiness" should seem like an almost unattainable goal for breaking the curse.

Donald Mellen

2020-11-04 21:08:48 +0000 UTC

LOL! I get that!

matt

2020-11-04 20:49:19 +0000 UTC

Joss has disavowed the WS Buffy. I don't want to post any links because, spoilers, but you can Google it.

matt

2020-11-04 20:44:07 +0000 UTC

This show is so well written it's unreal. We just witnessed a Slayer kill a demon...AND WE FELT BAD FOR THE DEMON! Even a handful of episodes ago you wouldn't have thought that was possible, and here we are...amazing.

Jamie Morgan

2020-11-04 20:28:56 +0000 UTC

He definitely cares about the utility she can provide. Whether or not he cares about her personally...honestly, I go back and forth. Maybe, to an extent? But certainly not fully, not with ANY wholesomeness whatsoever!

Jamie Morgan

2020-11-04 20:25:38 +0000 UTC

Oof! Ok, I stand corrected.

Rob

2020-11-04 14:07:11 +0000 UTC

you are talking about the HD version that everyone hates, you know that, right? A whole bunch of ppl that originally worked on the show have gone to mention how much they hate the HD version and Passion of the Nerd made like a half-hour video about all the different ways in which it sucks...

BeckettBaladas

2020-11-04 12:51:10 +0000 UTC

I don't konw what episode you were watching, but him saying "replacing Mr Trick was already chore enough" sounds a lot more like he wants to say "I won't kill you since finding ANOTHER replacement would be too difficult"

BeckettBaladas

2020-11-04 12:47:28 +0000 UTC

I don't think so. They referred to it as supposed to be more of an art style film. More along the lines of those movies that are very sexual, but not teen comedy sex, and not skinamax, but that present themselves as being artistic.

Loves Bitca

2020-11-04 09:46:44 +0000 UTC

Yeah, Buffy was putting the pieces together in her head from things that Faith was saying, in the demon's apartment and just before she followed Faith out, she looks over to the spot that Faith turned the lights on. So yeah, she was starting to at least put together the clues.

Loves Bitca

2020-11-04 09:38:20 +0000 UTC

I hadn’t heard that.

Rob

2020-11-04 09:18:46 +0000 UTC

A great episode, gotta love snarky Giles... and not many left for this season, let the rollercoaster roll :) Some nice extended worldbuilding too with the whole thing of demons that aren't all about chaos & causing the end of the world, at the beck & call of evil types, there are also those who just have their lives. I also think it's implied that that demon was basically her commiting murder - sure she's killed things before but they've all been outright threats & there was the mayor's assistant who was an accident (which also freaked her out), whereas that demon was pretty much just a guy.

Stewart Denew

2020-11-04 08:38:54 +0000 UTC

They really do some very convincing fake-outs this season lol. I love this episode. It's fun to watch and it's fun to see people react to it. I love Angelus as a villain. And even though it wasn't really him again, it was fun to see a brief appearance anyway.

Steve Quast

2020-11-04 07:59:09 +0000 UTC

Isn't the widescreen format problematic because the show wasn't meant to be shown that way and we end up seeing crew and things that were supposed to be off screen

Calvin Allen

2020-11-04 07:54:20 +0000 UTC

Yeah it’s contradicted multiple times. The base personality is there and it influences how the demon....expresses itself. If Angelus an entirely separate entity then Angel is feeling guilty because his corpse got possessed by a demon. If there’s nothing of him in Angelus his guilt is absurd.

Flora Smith

2020-11-04 07:40:03 +0000 UTC

Alley some of these episodes are so good, you'll think about them for days or weeks afterwards. So many well defined, well constructed characters with different points of view, different backgrounds, different histories. Gotta be a blast for a pysch major.

Michael Roach

2020-11-04 07:30:08 +0000 UTC

I think the mayor wanted Angel to lose his soul so that he would have Angelus working for him, but also that he could be with Faith and keep her evil, plus take care of Buffy. The mayor gets a lot out of having Angelus on his side. Willie is the guy who runs the demon bar and knows all the demons in Sunnydale and where they hang out and stuff. So Xander got the address of the demon from Willie. I think when Buffy said that Angel and Faith have a lot in common, she just meant that both of them have a serious dark side and understand what that means. I love this episode so much. And the reaction was fabulous to watch. I knew you'd like this one. :D

Raven Dark

2020-11-04 07:25:19 +0000 UTC

Yeah this episode is Very Much and also A Lot like I straight up still don't know how I feel about it tbh

BOO

2020-11-04 07:22:09 +0000 UTC

FYI, Buffy is now on Amazon prime and it looks better than Hulu. Or at the very least it’s in widescreen vs Hulu still showing 4:3.

Rob

2020-11-04 06:22:39 +0000 UTC

I always thought it was a throwback to "Like Water for Chocolate." Magical realism was popular in the 90s.

Sika6061

2020-11-04 05:52:00 +0000 UTC

Thank you for posting this today of all days...

Sika6061

2020-11-04 05:47:57 +0000 UTC

Your Faith hatred is refreshing. I prefer it to the Xander bashing. I like Faith. As a character, I find her interesting and Eliza Dushku is wonderful in the role. However, there are plenty of reasons to dislike her. The Xander hatred bugs.

Kirby

2020-11-04 05:35:15 +0000 UTC

The Mayor: "There's more than one way to skin a cat; and I happen to know that's factually true."

Mark Zima

2020-11-04 05:27:50 +0000 UTC

One of favorite episodes this season, sooo good

Athena Polezogopoulos

2020-11-04 04:59:07 +0000 UTC

Angel was a monster, and once he regained his soul, he spent a century coming to terms with his guilt and remorse, so he comprehends the psychological trauma that Faith ought to be going through as a result of acting like a monster.

Bryce Carlson

2020-11-04 04:22:35 +0000 UTC

I think what happened is the Mayor called the magician guy, and when the sorcerer realized that he was taking Angel's soul and Angel and Giles worked together, he came to Giles to repay his debt. Buffy, Giles, and Angel knew what was going to happen. The Sorcerer/magician put on a light show and Angel acted like he lost his soul. He knew when Faith walked in with the cup of blood what was about to happen. Side note: if you look at Angels face when we realizes the Mayor is impervious, you can actually see a brief flash of Angel-Angel show surprise and concern before he put back on his Angelus face. It was really good acting. The only thing that confused me is why they didn't tell the rest of the scubbies. I headcanon that they wanted their reaction to be authentic in case they ran into Faith.

Leenis

2020-11-04 04:16:11 +0000 UTC

Lol that's somehow even worse. Buffy I can somehow explain by trying to impress her (much much) older european bf.

DB

2020-11-04 03:53:59 +0000 UTC

Hulu has the CORRECT order, although the CORRECT order is not the order that the episodes actually aired. This whole issue is best discussed later.

Mark Zima

2020-11-04 03:50:37 +0000 UTC

In an interview with Eliza, she addmitted to slipping David the tongue hahahaha

Chris Hanley

2020-11-04 03:38:09 +0000 UTC

Dad_Plays_ You seem to be forgetting about the evidence to the contrary given in "Doppelgangland". Buffy tells Willow that the behavior of her vampire double is no reflection on real Willow's character, and that it is all just the character of the demon, and Angel starts to correct Buffy... and then decides not to correct Buffy. Later in that episode, when Anya goes into her rant about everyone grovelling before her when she gets her powers back, real Willow and vampire Willow are shown to simultaneously have identical reactions to this rant... which demonstrates that there are indeed some character similarities between real Willow and vampire Willow.

Mark Zima

2020-11-04 03:33:34 +0000 UTC

I adore this episode... just that moment of realization: "What can I say, I'm the world's best actor." "Second best." ...... :O As for the plan to remove Angel's soul... even if they can't guarantee Angelus would be on the Mayor's side in his plans, he could certainly keep Buffy occupied and distracted, and help make sure she doesn't interfere. shrug Just my thoughts anyway.

Denni Caid

2020-11-04 03:24:30 +0000 UTC

Actually, Joss Whedon originally strongly rejected fans' claims that Faith had some romantic interest in Buffy, but then he looked at a fan's compilation of the evidence for it and Joss then changed his mind about the subject, which suggests that the other writers did not always keep Joss in the loop about everything they were up to as far as seeding clues into the episodes.

Mark Zima

2020-11-04 03:16:46 +0000 UTC

This is one of my favourite episodes, maybe even in top 5!

Phoenix Dawn

2020-11-04 02:55:59 +0000 UTC

I myself love her to the moon and back she's so relatable and fun to watch <3333

madfem

2020-11-04 02:46:43 +0000 UTC

The Mayor is such a good representation of a nonsexual groomer, IMO.

Launa

2020-11-04 02:34:59 +0000 UTC

I love this ep! Such a great one two punch following Doppelgangland. For a second, I was afraid Alley was going to not believe it was "Angelus" when he first "came back" in the scene with Faith. It was when she was saying "really? Really? and "We've been through this, we really gotta do this shit again?" I just thought any second she was gonna then say, is he really Angelus?" or is he pretending?" So glad she didn't figure it out because then the twist wouldn't have paid off in such a good way for us(and her) :) I love your dog! So are we to think the shaman guy told Giles about the Mayor's plan and that's when the whole deception plan happened?

Val

2020-11-04 01:59:23 +0000 UTC

If he had sex with Faith he wouldn't have lost his soul, especially considering the negative feelings (guilt) he would feel afterwards. They associate the soul loss with sex but in reality its just if he becomes totally at peace which is less likely to happen now because the threat of losing it again is always playing on his mind. He has also had partners in the past before Buffy and kept his soul.

Nikolai5

2020-11-04 01:07:24 +0000 UTC

Well, sure, I'm just saying that I feel more sorry for him in this instance, which is not usually the case.

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

2020-11-04 00:46:24 +0000 UTC

One of the coolest aspects of this ep is that when you rewatch it, you can see that Angel is NOT Angelus from many subtle indications in the body language of both Buffy and Angel. It's subtle enough, however, that almost nobody picks up on it during their first watch. A+ Writing. A+ Acting. A+ Directing.

UTU49

2020-11-04 00:36:45 +0000 UTC

I don't think Hulu is likely to have the wrong order, but I'm sure if there's a problem, someone here will know about it.

UTU49

2020-11-04 00:32:17 +0000 UTC

yea its there

Bisibia

2020-11-04 00:31:29 +0000 UTC

I’m pretty sure the dialogue indicates it was his pick.

Flora Smith

2020-11-04 00:31:03 +0000 UTC

He also sent her to have sex with Angel. It’s an incredibly perverse relationship.

Flora Smith

2020-11-04 00:29:15 +0000 UTC

"Political stuff"? What do u mean? Is something happening today? Totally kidding.

UTU49

2020-11-04 00:23:19 +0000 UTC

None of the characters are perfect and they are supposed to reacting to what has happened using their emotions rather than logical thought. Remember that as a viewer we know more than Buffy and have hindsight.

Nikolai5

2020-11-04 00:12:55 +0000 UTC

Forgive m, but it's important >> Does anyone know if Hulu has the correct order of episodes for the rest of the season, if not we need to tell Alley (Please be Uber fans and get my meaning so I don't have to explain further and incurred the wrath of the spoiler police..)

Ashtara Levin

2020-11-04 00:08:45 +0000 UTC

Ohh! I remember the first time I saw this episode thinking "wow.. Buffy is taking this "angel losing his soul again" rather calmly then I thought she would.. never thought about why till now...

Ashtara Levin

2020-11-04 00:01:45 +0000 UTC

Gracie \o/

Ged Kelly

2020-11-03 23:58:23 +0000 UTC

I assumed the movie was Angel's choice (he's the one who says he thought it would be fun, so I figured he said, "Hey, let's see a movie" and thought a French film would be fun... only to discover that it's an "arthouse" flick that had some, um, weird stuff in it.)

FernWithy

2020-11-03 23:53:11 +0000 UTC

Yeah, but he's mostly been playing the good guys, instead of the gleeful sociopaths. He's so damned good at that. :D

FernWithy

2020-11-03 23:51:15 +0000 UTC

Ive read in quite a few places that the first scene with the movies was a reference to American Pie with Alyson Hannigan in, don't know how true that is though!

Megan

2020-11-03 23:47:58 +0000 UTC

As to who exactly know what and when and how this was all planned? Well - ever seen The Big Sleep? The answer to your questions are mostly the same answers Raymond Chandler gave when they asked him who had killed the chauffeur in his story..

Dave Ford

2020-11-03 23:45:56 +0000 UTC

While I feel sorry for Buffy obviously I feel more sorry for Angel tbh. Buffy asked him to do this. He had to re-enact scenes similar to the things he did last season. He's had to relive emotionally torturing Buffy and physically torturing Giles. And then she wants some space. I'd be a bit pissed off if I was him. (and I don't often side with Angel!)

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

2020-11-03 23:43:35 +0000 UTC

He has been a leading man in his own TV series for, like, 20 years straight now. It's pretty impressive. (Even if he doesn't get to show how well he does "goofy" very often.)

Erica Schaefer

2020-11-03 23:43:25 +0000 UTC

I don’t know about that...at this point in the show. It was just at the beginning of this episode when he practically came right out and said that if faith didn’t get those books for him he was going to kill her and move on to finding her replacement. Just saying.

Brandon Scott

2020-11-03 23:42:48 +0000 UTC

Definitely.

Brandon Scott

2020-11-03 23:41:39 +0000 UTC

Two things, First, though I couldn’t disagree more with some of your opinions about Faith, I think you come to the right conclusion and maybe have phrased it better than anyone I’ve ever come across before with the “...as long as it isn’t indifference.” That’s perfect. And sencond: it is a confirmed thing by both the show runners and Eliza herself that from the time she entered Sunnyvale she played the character as Bi and as having a thing for Buffy. The motivations behind that attraction I think are up for debate but the idea that it was there is confirmed....from Faiths side, that is. It’s just as much confirmed that Buffy is straight.

Brandon Scott

2020-11-03 23:40:12 +0000 UTC

Angel (and Bangel) are the only elements of this season that I really don’t enjoy. His mopey shtick and their tedious back and forthing...🙄

Flora Smith

2020-11-03 23:38:56 +0000 UTC

I love that Giles is free to be a bit more himself now. I feel like he's wanted to be this sassy for years now but there's only been kids around and he had to hold back. The last time he got into verbal fisticuffs was with Jenny in I Robot You Jane!

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

2020-11-03 23:38:17 +0000 UTC

The Mayor genuinely cares for Faith. In his own evil kind of way.

TheEvilSmurf42

2020-11-03 23:38:14 +0000 UTC

I've wondered about the ending a lot. It always felt like a bit too much of a coincidence to me. On the other hand, it is implied that it needs some seriously dark magic so maybe it's not that common to be able to do this spell. So, presumably Giles knows this chap is capable of doing the spell so maybe he'd already talked to him when Angel came back. Giles is pretty freaked out by Angel's return and I think he started researching it as soon as he knew (not in Amends). He'd have to be worried that even if this is Angel he might be seriously disturbed or that it might be easier for him to lose his soul now. So maybe he called the demon to have a chat with him (maybe explaining the 'do not call on me again' line, if he recently did) to see if he knows anything about losing souls after being in hell for a few hundred years, so that's how the demon knows. Otherwise it suggests that this demon knows a heck of a lot about Giles' life to realise that he should go to him when asked to remove Angel's soul. I'd have thought he's a busy guy ;)

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

2020-11-03 23:35:49 +0000 UTC

@aeronitz ah, my bad. I just read “EVEN keeps its characters unclear about some of the lore,” and “EVEN the characters never fully understand”. That implies that you talking about more than just the characters which only leaves the fans. And you wouldn’t be wrong. Many many fans have this debate and can’t seem to come to the obvious conclusions.

Brandon Scott

2020-11-03 23:34:27 +0000 UTC

@RJ.... WHAT? First, as far as I or anyone else who’s watched this show is concerned, there no other nor have there ever been any other vampires with souls....so, yes. He is a completely unique case. As for the rest, come on, dude; a bad rub? If anything, now living with the memories of hundreds of years of torture in a hell dimension would make it even MORE difficult to achieve a true contentment or peace, let alone happiness.

Brandon Scott

2020-11-03 23:30:16 +0000 UTC

You are not reading my comments in their entirety. I did NOT say that that is what I believe. I said that the CHARACTERS in the show often think that.

aeronitz

2020-11-03 23:27:47 +0000 UTC

And when Xander was all "I told you so", he was probably referring to his position in 3x7 when the gang finds out about Angel; he wanted to kill ensouled Angel because he was afraid of Angel turning into Angelus again at some point in the future.

BeckettBaladas

2020-11-03 23:26:57 +0000 UTC

Really? That’s even less ambiguous. If he lost his soul from “getting some” then he would’ve lost it right when or right after he climaxed. He didn’t. He didn’t lose his soul until what might have even been a couple of hours later as he laid in bed with Buffy in his arms. The night they both said I love you for the first time, the night they first shared a bed, and there he was just holding the woman he loved feeling completely at peace with the world..... whoops.

Brandon Scott

2020-11-03 23:25:34 +0000 UTC

But the damned fool forgot to get a receipt ;)

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

2020-11-03 23:24:41 +0000 UTC

The guy Xander was referring to ("Willy the Snitch") is the bartender that has been in a couple of episodes by now, for example in the two-parter that introduced Kendra, in "Amends" and in "The Zeppo".

BeckettBaladas

2020-11-03 23:24:41 +0000 UTC

Yes, I hate Angelus but, boy was he a good villain!

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

2020-11-03 23:24:13 +0000 UTC

I often wonder what effect a few hundred years in hell would have had. It seems that someone with a soul is in torment, someone without is not. But how many vampires with souls have got sent to hell? Is he a unique case. Are the rules the same? Does it mean that he could withstand it better (explaining how he recovered quickly after coming back)? But could it also mean that the rules have changed with respect to him losing his soul? Maybe true happiness is a good back rub now! I've always felt that this is a big reason that Giles is freaked out by his return. I don't think he feels that Buffy and Angel will be stupid enough to do the deed again but he doesn't know if that's all it takes now. To be honest, he knows this demon guy who did the fake soul steal here so Giles KNOWS that it is possible to lose a soul in another way.

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

2020-11-03 23:22:56 +0000 UTC

I’m so glad that you have made the realization that Angel did not lose his soul through the simple act and climax but rather afterward while lying peacefully in bed with the woman he loves is where he found that true contentment and happiness. It’s a HUGE thing that, believe it or not, many members of the fandom can’t seem to get on their own. Well done. Also, yes. They did the Faith-turning-on-the-light thing intentionally. And ye, I think it’s implied that Buffy noticed and her comment about how killing that demon was “somebody’s idea of a party,” was a little probe at Faith to see if she could get a reaction... which she did. Awesome video (as always).

Brandon Scott

2020-11-03 23:19:51 +0000 UTC

Yes!

Superfan Giovanni

2020-11-03 23:17:45 +0000 UTC

That, and he gets clocked by Angel. Although, I have to admit that part makes me laugh.

Kirby

2020-11-03 23:17:07 +0000 UTC

Fucked up that Giles or Wesley doesn't reemburse him, a broke teen from a poor family even without a receipt. Xander is lowkey really mistreated.

Tobijah

2020-11-03 23:14:24 +0000 UTC

It cracks me up the way Wesley says, "I'm telling the council!" He sounds like a child running off to Mummy to tattle on his siblings. Another favorite moment, Giles on the state of modern standards. "Demons after money. Whatever happened to the still-beating heart of a virgin? No one has any standards anymore."

Kirby

2020-11-03 23:11:51 +0000 UTC

Calm down dude. I am talking about Angel's curse and what exactly triggers him to lose it. The characters often assume that Angel will lose his soul any time he gets some.

aeronitz

2020-11-03 23:07:34 +0000 UTC

Yeah, he bribed him with $28, lol.

Kirby

2020-11-03 23:07:06 +0000 UTC

I see and hear this all the time and it just isn’t that complicated. I keep threatening to make a video or video essay just to spell out all the ways this show makes crystal clear how the “soul thing” works. “A vampire isn’t a man. I was a man once.” ~Angel in Amends. “That’s not how it works. You die. And a demon sets up shop in your old body. And it walks and it talks and it remembers your life but it’s not you.” ~Buffy in Lie To Me. “Jesse is dead. ...when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him.” ~Giles in The Harvest. “When you become a vampire the demon takes your body but it doesn’t get your soul. That’s gone.” Angel in Angel. Just a few quotes off of the top of my head that directly address this topic and prove without a doubt that Angel and “Angelus” are two separate entities. And that the soul is indeed more than simply the conscience.

Brandon Scott

2020-11-03 23:04:28 +0000 UTC

Also played Charles in License to Drive with the Coreys.

Nica Marie

2020-11-03 23:00:12 +0000 UTC

Better Angel than Faith...think about it.

Brandon Scott

2020-11-03 22:50:21 +0000 UTC

Also the demon faith killed was played by Michael Manasseri who starred as Wyatt on 'Weird Science' (1994) the TV series that aired on the USA network. For fellow olds.

Superfan Giovanni

2020-11-03 22:47:06 +0000 UTC

Unpopular opinion: fuck Faith. Hate her. Can’t stand the eternal pity party/jealous types of people.

Kitty

2020-11-03 22:46:29 +0000 UTC

Same. Gonna watch this and eat pizza and ice cream before, well, gestures wildly kicks off

escalator_dropdown

2020-11-03 22:43:08 +0000 UTC

Giles had that key line "thank you for coming to me with this" implying the blue ninja mummy demon was first hit up by the mayor to steal Angel's soul then immediately left the meeting, pocketing his payment for the job then drove(?) or transmogrified over to Giles apartment as he knows he lives in Sunnydale and wants to ensure it doesn't interfere with him, the mayor could have also mentioned a librarian off camera, what a cool demon bro!

Superfan Giovanni

2020-11-03 22:42:21 +0000 UTC

Oh my god I just assumed this wouldn’t be coming today because of gestures wildly. Thank you SO MUCH for this welcome bit of reprieve I can’t wait to watch!

Mary Kate

2020-11-03 22:41:06 +0000 UTC

This episode is pretty cheesy but I love it. That shot of Faith and Angel with the camera zooming in is one of my favorites

Calvin Allen

2020-11-03 22:40:02 +0000 UTC

Oh thank you! I’ve been waiting on this post all day, a much needed break from all the political stuff!

Keenan White

2020-11-03 22:35:18 +0000 UTC

Oh and Xander got the address from Willy. He's the bar owner you've seen a few times.

DB

2020-11-03 22:33:20 +0000 UTC

That was a fake movie that Buffy and Angel went to see. And I've always wondered why would Buffy choose seemingly a French film about food to begin with. Doesn't strike me as a date material lol Also this episode is the most personality we've seen from Angel so far this season imo He can be such a compelling character but instead they have him constantly angsting in a dark corner or alternatively looking confused af by things happening around. Sigh. I genuinely missed Angelus.

DB

2020-11-03 22:31:23 +0000 UTC

The scene with the mayor offering Faith milk, Alley had all of the exact same facial expressions as ED.

matt

2020-11-03 22:28:01 +0000 UTC

Buffy should've taken Angel to see 'The Matrix' instead.

Superfan Giovanni

2020-11-03 22:21:20 +0000 UTC

Yes...and Buffy even knows she's bad at it. Remember in Anne, "I just suck at undercover...."

aeronitz

2020-11-03 22:20:53 +0000 UTC

The plot was super convoluted, but I like it anyway--that "Second best" is one of the best twists ever, and Boreanaz proves that he really can act. (I've always been shocked that he didn't find a career playing gleeful demons and criminals after Angelus, because he's just so very good at it.)

FernWithy

2020-11-03 22:20:05 +0000 UTC

Yes, that is what the common belief is about Angel's curse...but one thing I love about this show is that it even keeps its characters unclear about some of the lore. Angel's soul is one of those bits that even the characters never fully understand.

aeronitz

2020-11-03 22:19:24 +0000 UTC

What a twist!

Blain H Granado

2020-11-03 22:15:43 +0000 UTC

Also, if you watch closely, Buffy (the character) isn't a great actress. The scene between Angel, Faith and Buffy in Buffy's room has Buffy acting kind of awkward and stilted in retrospect. You don't really notice it at first but on rewatch, you can tell she's pretending to be disgusted and scared and isn't quite pulling it off.

Holy Stregas

2020-11-03 22:13:35 +0000 UTC

So glad to turn twitter off and watch this. Thanks!

Dave Ford

2020-11-03 22:04:03 +0000 UTC

Notice that Angel doesn't actually have a good reason to KO Xander. If Xander was in on the plan, they could have faked it, and if Xander wasn't in on the plan, he seems sure that Angel still has his soul given that he tries to talk to him, so it's not like he was suspicious and they needed to knock him out to keep the ruse going. Faith had no idea Angel was faking, so it's not like Angel needed to attack the others to convince her. I think Angel just wanted to hit Xander and finally had a good excuse.

Holy Stregas

2020-11-03 22:01:11 +0000 UTC

The idea of Angel going to the movies is hilarious

Superfan Giovanni

2020-11-03 21:53:25 +0000 UTC

I love when they ask Giles what favor he did for the caped demon. Giles “ I introduced him to his wife.” 😂😂😂😂

Allan Cornett

2020-11-03 21:52:30 +0000 UTC

Did your blood run cold at "Second best " mine still does

L R

2020-11-03 21:45:45 +0000 UTC

One of my favourite episodes of the season. I'm a massive Faith fan in part for her flaws, she is neither good nor bad she goes to whatever side serves her best. All her jealousy towards and obsession with Buffy caught up to her and she has completely lost it. Her faux father figure the Mayor has treated her better than anyone on the show, even Buffy the person she cared about so much she did all that self destructive behaviour in the first place. I feel the Mayor does care about Faith in his own messed up way, but the power dynamic they have just leaves her open to be exploited. Faith being a bad friend and betraying Buffy is such a good storyline. Faith really is a case study of what happens if a mentally unwell person gets super powers. She crossed the country alone to find Buffy clearly searching for some sense of belonging and put all her eggs in one basket. Once there was tension between them and Faith's trust wavered, she started to become more openly hostile towards her and others. Likely a defense mechanism to stop herself from being hurt by someone she cares about again. This isn't Buffy's fault in any way she is right, Faith's issues started long before she met her and killed Alan, those incidents just exasperated events. I find the way Faith see's Buffy, regardless of if you view it as romantic or platonic is very much the ethos of: "If you don't love me then I will make you hate me, as long as it isn't indifference." On a shipping note this episode is used in every Buffy/Faith FMV since the early 2000's lmao.

Valkyrie

2020-11-03 21:38:06 +0000 UTC

Hero!

Superfan Giovanni

2020-11-03 21:33:34 +0000 UTC

Needed this today

Jeffrey

2020-11-03 21:29:51 +0000 UTC

Oh that twist! I didn't see it coming at all, the first time i watched it.

Elisa H.

2020-11-03 21:24:33 +0000 UTC

Whoo!! Thankyou Alley for getting this out at a good UK time! Really appreciate it.

Collinson

2020-11-03 21:21:59 +0000 UTC

Buffy the Vampire Slayer || 3x17 || Full Reaction

Comments

Just another minor tidbit - the “Miniature Golf” conversation was unscripted, so Eliza’s confused look and giggle was genuine as she didn’t know it was coming. Joss liked the way it worked, so it stayed.

Lucky Giles, up to his neck in tea :D

Yeah, I've actually been super happy she's been watching the non-HD version. Especially for Season 3, episodes like Helpless need that darker visual tone to work, and the HD version just lights 'em up to a ridiculous level.

Yeah this is all my head canon, too

I kinda love this episode because it has so much Faith content, and kinda hate it because of how hurt Buffy is at the end. Faith and Buffy are such a dynamic pairing. You never know what direction they're going to bounce off each other, it's so much fun to watch.

She said she cut her tongue on his vampire teeth and they were like "uh you don't have to use your tongue" because she was 17 at the time and new to these kind of scenes, and David was like "no it's okay" which ... is a bit weird.

Alley should open a karate school with them moves

Fun fact - this was the episode where Doug Petrie's Lesbian Subtext Operation was thwarted. He scripted Faith to kiss Buffy on the lips and finally it was like "... hey, wait a minute I see what you have been doing with your episodes!"

LOL! I get that!

Joss has disavowed the WS Buffy. I don't want to post any links because, spoilers, but you can Google it.

This show is so well written it's unreal. We just witnessed a Slayer kill a demon...AND WE FELT BAD FOR THE DEMON! Even a handful of episodes ago you wouldn't have thought that was possible, and here we are...amazing.

He definitely cares about the utility she can provide. Whether or not he cares about her personally...honestly, I go back and forth. Maybe, to an extent? But certainly not fully, not with ANY wholesomeness whatsoever!

Oof! Ok, I stand corrected.

you are talking about the HD version that everyone hates, you know that, right? A whole bunch of ppl that originally worked on the show have gone to mention how much they hate the HD version and Passion of the Nerd made like a half-hour video about all the different ways in which it sucks...

I don't konw what episode you were watching, but him saying "replacing Mr Trick was already chore enough" sounds a lot more like he wants to say "I won't kill you since finding ANOTHER replacement would be too difficult"

I don't think so. They referred to it as supposed to be more of an art style film. More along the lines of those movies that are very sexual, but not teen comedy sex, and not skinamax, but that present themselves as being artistic.

Yeah, Buffy was putting the pieces together in her head from things that Faith was saying, in the demon's apartment and just before she followed Faith out, she looks over to the spot that Faith turned the lights on. So yeah, she was starting to at least put together the clues.

I hadn’t heard that.

They really do some very convincing fake-outs this season lol. I love this episode. It's fun to watch and it's fun to see people react to it. I love Angelus as a villain. And even though it wasn't really him again, it was fun to see a brief appearance anyway.

Isn't the widescreen format problematic because the show wasn't meant to be shown that way and we end up seeing crew and things that were supposed to be off screen

Yeah it’s contradicted multiple times. The base personality is there and it influences how the demon....expresses itself. If Angelus an entirely separate entity then Angel is feeling guilty because his corpse got possessed by a demon. If there’s nothing of him in Angelus his guilt is absurd.

Alley some of these episodes are so good, you'll think about them for days or weeks afterwards. So many well defined, well constructed characters with different points of view, different backgrounds, different histories. Gotta be a blast for a pysch major.

Yeah this episode is Very Much and also A Lot like I straight up still don't know how I feel about it tbh

FYI, Buffy is now on Amazon prime and it looks better than Hulu. Or at the very least it’s in widescreen vs Hulu still showing 4:3.

I always thought it was a throwback to "Like Water for Chocolate." Magical realism was popular in the 90s.

Thank you for posting this today of all days...

Your Faith hatred is refreshing. I prefer it to the Xander bashing. I like Faith. As a character, I find her interesting and Eliza Dushku is wonderful in the role. However, there are plenty of reasons to dislike her. The Xander hatred bugs.

The Mayor: "There's more than one way to skin a cat; and I happen to know that's factually true."

One of favorite episodes this season, sooo good

Angel was a monster, and once he regained his soul, he spent a century coming to terms with his guilt and remorse, so he comprehends the psychological trauma that Faith ought to be going through as a result of acting like a monster.

Lol that's somehow even worse. Buffy I can somehow explain by trying to impress her (much much) older european bf.

Hulu has the CORRECT order, although the CORRECT order is not the order that the episodes actually aired. This whole issue is best discussed later.

In an interview with Eliza, she addmitted to slipping David the tongue hahahaha

This is one of my favourite episodes, maybe even in top 5!

I myself love her to the moon and back she's so relatable and fun to watch <3333

The Mayor is such a good representation of a nonsexual groomer, IMO.

Well, sure, I'm just saying that I feel more sorry for him in this instance, which is not usually the case.

I don't think Hulu is likely to have the wrong order, but I'm sure if there's a problem, someone here will know about it.

yea its there

I’m pretty sure the dialogue indicates it was his pick.

He also sent her to have sex with Angel. It’s an incredibly perverse relationship.

"Political stuff"? What do u mean? Is something happening today? Totally kidding.

None of the characters are perfect and they are supposed to reacting to what has happened using their emotions rather than logical thought. Remember that as a viewer we know more than Buffy and have hindsight.

Forgive m, but it's important >> Does anyone know if Hulu has the correct order of episodes for the rest of the season, if not we need to tell Alley (Please be Uber fans and get my meaning so I don't have to explain further and incurred the wrath of the spoiler police..)

Ohh! I remember the first time I saw this episode thinking "wow.. Buffy is taking this "angel losing his soul again" rather calmly then I thought she would.. never thought about why till now...

Gracie \o/

I assumed the movie was Angel's choice (he's the one who says he thought it would be fun, so I figured he said, "Hey, let's see a movie" and thought a French film would be fun... only to discover that it's an "arthouse" flick that had some, um, weird stuff in it.)

Yeah, but he's mostly been playing the good guys, instead of the gleeful sociopaths. He's so damned good at that. :D

Ive read in quite a few places that the first scene with the movies was a reference to American Pie with Alyson Hannigan in, don't know how true that is though!

As to who exactly know what and when and how this was all planned? Well - ever seen The Big Sleep? The answer to your questions are mostly the same answers Raymond Chandler gave when they asked him who had killed the chauffeur in his story..

He has been a leading man in his own TV series for, like, 20 years straight now. It's pretty impressive. (Even if he doesn't get to show how well he does "goofy" very often.)

I don’t know about that...at this point in the show. It was just at the beginning of this episode when he practically came right out and said that if faith didn’t get those books for him he was going to kill her and move on to finding her replacement. Just saying.

Definitely.

Angel (and Bangel) are the only elements of this season that I really don’t enjoy. His mopey shtick and their tedious back and forthing...🙄

I love that Giles is free to be a bit more himself now. I feel like he's wanted to be this sassy for years now but there's only been kids around and he had to hold back. The last time he got into verbal fisticuffs was with Jenny in I Robot You Jane!

The Mayor genuinely cares for Faith. In his own evil kind of way.

You are not reading my comments in their entirety. I did NOT say that that is what I believe. I said that the CHARACTERS in the show often think that.

And when Xander was all "I told you so", he was probably referring to his position in 3x7 when the gang finds out about Angel; he wanted to kill ensouled Angel because he was afraid of Angel turning into Angelus again at some point in the future.

But the damned fool forgot to get a receipt ;)

The guy Xander was referring to ("Willy the Snitch") is the bartender that has been in a couple of episodes by now, for example in the two-parter that introduced Kendra, in "Amends" and in "The Zeppo".

Yes, I hate Angelus but, boy was he a good villain!

Yes!

That, and he gets clocked by Angel. Although, I have to admit that part makes me laugh.

Fucked up that Giles or Wesley doesn't reemburse him, a broke teen from a poor family even without a receipt. Xander is lowkey really mistreated.

Calm down dude. I am talking about Angel's curse and what exactly triggers him to lose it. The characters often assume that Angel will lose his soul any time he gets some.

Yeah, he bribed him with $28, lol.

Also played Charles in License to Drive with the Coreys.

Better Angel than Faith...think about it.

Also the demon faith killed was played by Michael Manasseri who starred as Wyatt on 'Weird Science' (1994) the TV series that aired on the USA network. For fellow olds.

Unpopular opinion: fuck Faith. Hate her. Can’t stand the eternal pity party/jealous types of people.

Same. Gonna watch this and eat pizza and ice cream before, well, *gestures wildly* kicks off

Oh my god I just assumed this wouldn’t be coming today because of *gestures wildly.* Thank you SO MUCH for this welcome bit of reprieve I can’t wait to watch!

This episode is pretty cheesy but I love it. That shot of Faith and Angel with the camera zooming in is one of my favorites

Oh thank you! I’ve been waiting on this post all day, a much needed break from all the political stuff!

Oh and Xander got the address from Willy. He's the bar owner you've seen a few times.

The scene with the mayor offering Faith milk, Alley had all of the exact same facial expressions as ED.

Buffy should've taken Angel to see 'The Matrix' instead.

Yes...and Buffy even knows she's bad at it. Remember in Anne, "I just suck at undercover...."

Same. Gonna watch this and eat pizza and ice cream before, well, gestures wildly kicks off

Oh my god I just assumed this wouldn’t be coming today because of gestures wildly. Thank you SO MUCH for this welcome bit of reprieve I can’t wait to watch!