FELLOWTRAVELERS EP6 - UNCUT
Added 2023-12-11 14:01:35 +0000 UTCA NEW TIME PERIOD?!
and Lucy and Tim finally meeting! So much happening in this episode...
Comments
I totally disagree that Hawk isn't suffering. I think he's suffering most, out of all of them. He truly loves Tim, always has, but cannot bring himself to say it out loud, to admit, mainly to himself, who & what he is. Somewhere inside he's still the boy who disgusted his father. He lies to himself, tells himself it's just sex, and until he meets Tim it probably was, but he has a lie to live. A marriage that is only skin-deep happy, a career that could come crashing down any day, if his cruising & cottaging was to become public. Kids he really does love, but who he doesn't quite know how to be a father to. I wonder if Jackson was so troubled because he was gay too. I wonder if that's what he meant when he says to Hawk " I think there's something wrong with me". As Hawk says later, Jackson always knew his father was lying, and later that the one thing he wanted was not to become his father. On the surface Hawk has it all, but the one thing he craves, he can't have. When Tim goes into hospital, Hawk doesn't just visit him, he stays with him, sleeps next to him, kisses him, lies with him in his arms in full view of everyone's else on the ward, and despite the tragedy of the situation, never looked more complete & content & at peace with himself.
Jacqueline Hahn
2024-03-28 07:24:58 +0000 UTCSorry for the multiple posts. There's a lot to react to in an hour long video.
Charlzz
2023-12-17 04:29:24 +0000 UTCSkip this if you don't want to hear a wild theory or wait until you watch more episodes to get the full meaning of my wild theory. In the Episode 6 reaction, Alex mentions that Tim goes from God, to Hawk, to God. Also Josh makes an analogy with Tim being treated like a guy owning a special car. I'll start with Josh's analogy and give my twist on it. Instead of a car, Tim is like this really fast motorcycle. When Hawk "rides" him, he feels the wind, the speed, the danger, and this excites him. But he hides this motorcycle because his wife thinks he'll get himself killed. She doesn't want him to ride the bike. In fact, Hawk doesn't tell Lucy he has this motorcycle, because he knows how she'll react. Instead, he drives a mini-van. The minivan is safe. It transports the family go baseball practice or piano lessons or to picnics with the whole family. But the minivan is truly boring. He drives it for the family's sake. But it's not like riding that bike. Hawk's wife has no idea the motorcycle exists, but she suspects he's riding a bike. She just doesn't know just how much Hawk loves that bike and how bored he is with the minivan. To her, the bike is danger. It risks leaving the family without a father if there's an accident. Lucy wants assurances Hawk is not riding a bike. He promises he truly loves driving the minivan. She pretends to believe Hawk. Back to the other bit. Alex says Tim is with God, then Hawk, then God. Alex is trying to understand this back and forth. I want you to extrapolate this idea of God vs. Hawk further. I had a wild theory which I wrote in a different forum. It has to do with how Tim views God and Hawk. Initially, Tim can't reconcile being in love with God and being in love with Hawk. These are two separate and incompatible beliefs in Tim's mind. Tim can't both love God and Hawk because believing in one means lying in the other. If Tim believes he loves God, than his love for Hawk is wrong, and vice versa. Tim thinks his relationship with Hawk is sinful, but he also questions if it really is a sin. He confesses, in an earlier episode, "but how can love be wrong?". My wild theory is that Tim once thought God and Hawk as incompatible. But he changes his mind, at least for a time. Tim decides his love for God and Hawk is compatible. I don't just mean compatible. I mean *equivalent*. Tim comes to think of God and Hawk as the same. His love for both are equivalent. This is how he convinces himself to be with Hawk and still believe in God because--and here's the kicker--he believes Hawk *is* God. It's a twisted view that doesn't fully work, but I think it sheds light on Tim's actions. Of course, Hawk has no clue that's how Tim thinks. He just wants sex with Tim. Think of it from Hawk's perspective as if Hawk were God. Tim worships Hawk. Hawk treats Tim as his property, and Tim offers himself willingly to Hawk (body and soul). Tim's perception of his relationship with Hawk is not so different from his relationship with God. Yeah, crazy idea.
Charlzz
2023-12-17 04:28:46 +0000 UTCCan I just say that Patreon has the absolute worst message system. It really is terrible and they ought to fix it. Simply awful. Just a little history. It might wrong in places, but I think this is generally correct. The late 1960s was the era of civil rights, i.e., black men and women who wanted to fight discriminatory laws in the South (which is the southeast US). The key figure is Martin Luther King, but there are others. A recent movie came out called Rustin, a gay black man who is a superb organizer and helps organize the march on Washington where MLK gives his "I have a dream speech". The gay movement doesn't happen until the early 1970s, a few years after the Vietnam protests. The other big firestorm of its day is Vietnam. Vietnam becomes the first war where the media is freely able to go to Vietnam and record whatever they want. They show the atrocities committed in the name of the US against communists. The country institutes a draft. You are called to serve if you get a draft card. However, this process is rigged. Rich people (think ex-president) can get friendly doctors to come up with excuses not to join the military. The draft primarily aims to get poor whites and poor blacks to fight in Vietnam. The fact is, not every male is drafted. Some choose to flee to Canada to avoid being drafted (Carter pardons these people in his presidency). During this period, John Lennon and George Harrison are peddling Indian religious ideas which leads to drugs, an anti-war sentiment, and this sentiment affects the US in what is called the hippie movement. It's a time of casual sex, drugs, and pacifism. Money is a sin. Communal living is what's in. This is, more or less, a white thing. Black people do also get into drugs, but there are efforts to criminalize it and incarcerate many blacks. Students on campuses are protesting the war. It becomes the first war which was hugely unpopular among the young and the young were active in a way they aren't at all today. The military would later prevent media free range coverage of any war to avoid the fiasco of what happened in Vietnam which lead to protests against the military. Tim's activism starts with helping kids not get drafted under Father Lawrence's guidance. They are willing to do illegal things to get stuff done, and this will ultimately inspire Tim to do the activism that is truly important for him. As an aside, the UK may have decrimnalized homosexuality for the entire country, but the US did it much more piecemeal, partly because states have some autonomy. Certain states decriminalized homosexual relations. Others were more conservative and made it illegal. It took a while before the US decriminalized it everywhere. States have powers to pass laws if the federal government doesn't pass national ones. I think it's somewhat like Wales and Scotland having their own laws. Was homosexuality decriminalized in England or the UK? If it was the UK, what entity decriminalized it? I'm curious.
Charlzz
2023-12-17 03:43:01 +0000 UTCMarcus's story is important (I've heard it's not in the book) because it offers another perspective to the red scare, and that is, there's still a lot of racism going on, and the African American community (in the 60s, African Americans wanted to be called black...African American is a term starting in the 1980s with key political figures like Jesse Jackson), er, the African American community is religious and conservative and basically anti-gay. Rather than make Marcus's life even more miserable than Hawk's, he see the future life Frankie has painted for him, a life he can live as both an out gay man, but also an out gay *black* man. Their relationship is what Hawk's relationship should have been, but isn't. Marcus, who is introduced early on as a black version of Hawk, listens to Frankie where Hawk can't handle Tim's desire for more honesty. Unlike Hawk who only has to face his gay demons, Marcus has to deal with both being black and being gay. If Marcus were outed as gay, he'd have no place to go. Frankie offers him a place to go, and he begins to realize this is the life he wants, even as it takes him a while to get to where Frankie is. Baby steps.
Charlzz
2023-12-17 03:26:34 +0000 UTCJosh wants Hawk to come clean with Lucy, and tell her the truth. Alex sort of agrees saying Lucy's not going to out him because of her brother, Lenny, who was gay and treated badly in conversion therapy (or so the implication goes). I realize it's easy to view the relationship from Hawk's perspective because he's the gay man and it's easier, despite its challenges, to see things from his perspective. And I understand the two of you feel that Lucy shouldn't be lied to, but I think you haven't thought this about the consequences. You're still seeing Lucy from Hawk's perspective. You don't like how he's dishonest with her and that he should just tell her about Tim. That would be, in your estimation, the right and decent thing to do. She'd wouldn't ruin Hawk's life because she has seen how it ruined Lenny's life (her own brother). We'll get back to Lenny and how this actually is important to understanding Lucy, but in a different way. Let's think this from Lucy's perspective. I mean really think. Hawk has decided to be honest with you. He says, "Look Lucy, I am a homosexual like your brother. I love Tim." How should she react? Think, oh great! You've been honest with me. Let me get dinner on the table. I love you Hawk for being honest with me. Here's where Lenny is important. She knows Lenny tried desperately to be straight and it didn't work. Her only true model of a gay man that she knows is Lenny. If a man is gay, can he possibly ever be straight? I mean, we do have bisexuality, but she's never witnessed a bisexual person. Lenny is her only perspective on the queer experience. So how is Lucy supposed to react if Hawk admits his love for Tim? I think you see why Hawk needs to lie to Lucy if he's to make this lie of a family work out. Lucy has to be willing to believe Hawk is telling the truth even if she really thinks he's lying. She has her reasons to live the lie as well.
Charlzz
2023-12-17 03:15:23 +0000 UTCHas Josh honestly never heard of gay people in conservative countries? I mean, he really seems to view everything through the lens of a 2023 gay man in the UK. What if it were Afghanistan or whereever? Gay guys get married to protect themselves. They can't possibly be honest with their partner. Josh sees it in terms of what he thinks is decent, and not what happens if Hawk gets caught. What if Lucy turns him in? He can't afford being caught, so being honest is not something he can believe. Also, Lucy is willingly looking away. Go watch Rothaniel, the Netflix comedy special, about Jerrod Carmichael who came out as a gay black man. It is more confession than comedy. It will shock you. You're so used to the way things ought to be that you've never thought how people have lived their lives. And in that case, it's not gay people acting bad, but straight people acting even worse. Just watch it because honestly, you guys don't seem to get any other perspective that then ones you have now. I do get there's a good cop/bad cop thing going on, but give Rothaniel a watch.
Charlzz
2023-12-17 02:24:15 +0000 UTCI totally agree with Alex about the fireworks. The impression of watching them was like seeing myself in the mirror 🤣
Michaela Morávková
2023-12-13 19:51:57 +0000 UTCHawk knew about Lucy and the dude she slept with - you see when they're dancing and she's looking at the guy, Hawk looks over his shoulder to follow who she's looking at. Then again at the fireworks he watches them both appear at the same time to watch. They know about each other.
Dionne Lakey
2023-12-12 20:25:51 +0000 UTCAlso, thank you for reviewing this show. I know these's another episode out, but I'm only watching this series with you, because your commentary is so insightful and educational.
Natalia Karyaka
2023-12-12 15:04:45 +0000 UTCNow I just want another series/movie with them, only playing a happy couple.. To heal all these wounds
Natalia Karyaka
2023-12-12 14:59:29 +0000 UTCIt's in the first episode, but yes, that's what I always think of when I'm feeling sorry for Lucy :))
Dorabella
2023-12-12 10:17:49 +0000 UTCExcellent analogy regarding Marian
Diane Furlong
2023-12-12 10:09:07 +0000 UTCI get that Lucy's situation is sad and I'm sorry for her and understand her behaviour in the 50s and 60s. But asking Hawk in 1986 in the first episode "Have I ever in all these years opened your mail?" when she clearly did at least once... So unnecessary, especially after everything they've been through.
Dorabella
2023-12-12 09:44:35 +0000 UTCI actually found myself feeling more conflicted about Lucy after this episode. I don't think she's a bad person, but I don't know that it's fair to place all the blame for her issues on Hawk. Yes, Hawk is lying and hiding himself; but so is she. Jackson and Leonard have called her out for lying to herself, and her conversation with Leonard in the last episode makes me think she already suspected Hawk might be gay before marrying him. Otherwise why would she even think to open the letter in the first place? She must have at least had an inkling by that point. Both Lucy and Hawk knew they could never give each other everything the other needed but got married anyway. They both made that decision and neither is willing to give up the life/facade they've built, similar to the decision that Hawk's mother made to stay with his father despite him being such an awful person. Not to mention she apparently never told Hawk about Tim's letter (in the first episode she made a comment about never reading his mail throughout their marriage, but that clearly wasn't true).
Keatia Savage
2023-12-12 02:35:54 +0000 UTCI tend to agree; it's a challenging situation. In those times, I imagine there were instances like this, exemplified by 'Brokeback Mountain.' I thought such situations might be more common outside the cities, but the American culture and its non-secular attitude toward marriage probably didn't help. As an Australian, I can't speak much about our marriage culture in the '50s, '60s, '70s, etc. Except to say that in In my grandparents' case, the woman handled the books, while the men worked, brought home money, and the woman managed the household. Marriage in Australia was never strongly tied to religion by law. In fact, the first unifying marriage Act didn't occur until 1961; before then, each state had its own disparate laws. Until 2004, gay marriage wasn't technically illegal. The law changed in 2004 when a lesbian couple got married in Canada and tried to have their marriage recognized in Australia. That's when the law was altered to exclusively define marriage 'between a man and a woman, to the exclusion of all others.' Sorry for that tangent.
Chris Mackenzie
2023-12-12 02:07:00 +0000 UTCWas Josh playing bad cop to Alex’s good cop this episode? I don’t think we can judge peoples actions shown in the series from the perspective of todays social mores. We can compare but judging is a waste of time. Also that shame and fear still runs through the LGBT+ community. Matt Bomer came out publicly in 2012 and Jonathan Bailey in 2018 (relatively recent) both of them have cited that it was their fear of damaging or limiting their careers that prevented them from doing it sooner. To quote Charlie Spring from Heartstopper: “I thought things were better nowadays”. In some respects they are but there’s a way to go yet.
Pip
2023-12-12 01:39:07 +0000 UTCMy feelings about Lucy are similar to my feelings about Marion in My Policeman and Flora in Man in an Orange Shirt. Both of which you should react to, they feel very relevant to the discussions being had.
Jenny Lukan
2023-12-12 01:25:05 +0000 UTCI disagree with not liking Lucy. I think Alex and Josh were right about what they were saying about her and liking her character in general. I don't think she knew anything about Hawk being gay when they were courting or even when they got married. We see in that scene after they were married that they hadn't slept together before marriage and she thought the reason that their sex life wasn't very fulfilling early on was because he realized she wasn't a virgin when they were married, which at the time was (ridiculously) a problem for some men (and I guess still it actually, just less frequently). She doesn't realize about Hawk being into men until he gives up his apartment (again after marriage) and Tim leaves the letter. Of course she's upset by it, but Hawk chose her. Just because he previously was with a man doesn't mean he doesn't or couldn't love her (there are more bisexual/pansexual people in the world - and that reported number rises every year as it becomes more socially acceptable). Right around the time this happens we also have the scene at the country house with Lucy's mother advising her about how men cheat but it's just about needs and as long as he comes home she should let it go (usually it is with other women and Lucy's mom doesn't realize in this case it's not, but at this time in their social circle her mother advises she should just accept it). Lucy does what little she feels she can in that instance and removes the temptation of the contractor and is upfront with Hawk about the importance of children for her. I think by this episode, in 1968, Lucy realizes he is gay given her drunken questions to Hawk, but really what is she going to do? In the USA in the 1960s there were large swaths of the country where women still couldn't have a bank account or credit card without a mans signature on it. Lucy's never worked. Her father is long dead and I'm guessing her brother, given the torture he no doubt went through with conversion therapy and all, probably isn't very well-off/successful. So if she leaves Hawk what happens then? So sure, in 1968 she is sticking with a cheating husband who otherwise treats her well and provides for her and her children. I don't think that makes her a bad person or lacking in integrity and I think she is absolutely right in calling Hawk out and demanding he not hide criminals on the run from the FBI on their property.
AK
2023-12-12 01:18:55 +0000 UTCThere is an interesting call back to the second episode when Hawk is packing for San Francisco. Lucy says “in all our years together, when have I ever opened your mail”. That line feels so sinister and manipulative now knowing that she did in fact open his mail and selfishly destroyed a letter in order to hold on to this future that she wanted. She is so similar to Hawk’s mom in that she knew the life she wanted and consciously ignored Hawk’s behavior. In an early episode she mentioned not caring about marrying for love, just finding the richest man she could find. I have such complicated feelings about her. I wish she had freed them both from the prison that was their marriage, but I understand why she didn’t. Women are still told to stick things out in unhappy marriages. I also wish Hawk had been brave enough to live authentically but he just wasn’t. I have no doubt that the love he had for Tim was real (or as real as he could feel love) but he was deeply scarred and flawed. The wonders modern therapy could’ve done for him!
Jenny Lukan
2023-12-12 01:18:19 +0000 UTCThis episode was a doozy but the one after? DESTROYED me. I’m so sad there’s only one more episode left because this is such a good show.
Carrie
2023-12-12 01:12:42 +0000 UTCWelcome to the 60s and They’re burning draft cards to protest the Vietnam War. I had to chuckle to myself when Josh mentions Chicken in San Francisco and my brain went to Dom’s restaurant from “Looking”
Diane Furlong
2023-12-12 01:06:47 +0000 UTCRight?! She knowingly kept him from perhaps living a fulfilling life. As someone who didn’t realize that I’m a lesbian and come out until after I was already married to a man, I don’t know where I would be had my ex not supported me. I might not have been brave enough to choose to live authentically. This is different because Hawk went into the marriage already aware that it would not be fulfilling but he knew he was not brave enough to live authentically. Instead of setting them both free, Lucy chose to continue to have the life she wanted and damn his happiness.
Jenny Lukan
2023-12-12 00:58:53 +0000 UTCRight! That letter could have been a catalyst for the truth to finally come out and set everyone free. Lucy has put a fair few bricks in the wall of the prison of their lives herself.
Jacqui Chesterton
2023-12-11 22:49:21 +0000 UTCI completely agree. Plus burning that letter may have kept them (Hawk and Skippy) apart.
Andrea Kammerer
2023-12-11 22:47:12 +0000 UTCOkay I can't not say this anymore ... I don't understand why you guys like Lucy lol. She made as many conscious decisions as Hawk in their relationship, and she acts like she's so magnanimous when actually she's also perpetuating the lie. Have some bloody integrity, woman.
Jacqui Chesterton
2023-12-11 22:38:22 +0000 UTCOh a lighter note I think we all know what would be number one on the top ten sex scenes review ❤️🤍👑💙 🪭
Chris Mackenzie
2023-12-11 21:26:51 +0000 UTCThis episode wasn't as traumatic as some of the others, but still just as brilliant. In the beginning, when Tim and the others burn the draft cards in Baltimore in 1968, that was an actual event. Being from Baltimore, I'd heard all about the "Catonsville Nine". Google it for the reference, but that's basically what they did. Not for one second do I blame Lucy for having an affair with Chet. Like Hawk, she has needs too, and Hawk isn't satisfying hers. I honestly don't think anything would have changed between Hawk and Tim in the fifteen years or so, even if Hawk had seen Tim's letter. Hawk would have continued to lead his double life, and Lucy and Tim would continue to be strung along. Maybe Tim wouldn't have gone to prison, but we don't even know that. At the end, when Jackson told Hawk that he thinks something's wrong with him, do we think he's gay? Lastly, Marcus and Frankie are still treading water. Frankie wants nothing more than to be with Marcus, and Marcus can't give that to Frankie, so now it's Frankie's turn to venture out and find himself.
Chris Metzger
2023-12-11 19:41:28 +0000 UTCFor context, this episode was in the 60s, 15 years later. Episode 7 is in the 70s. 😊
Dennis Roberts
2023-12-11 18:11:32 +0000 UTCAHHHHHH BEEN CHECKING EVERYDAY FOR THIS 🥹🙏🏼🙏🏼
Meral Gattan
2023-12-11 17:14:32 +0000 UTCIf you guys haven’t reacted to episode 7 yet you should read up on the Dan white and Harvey milk murder trial. It would help in understanding what happens in episode 7.
Ella
2023-12-11 16:54:18 +0000 UTCWell shit....that episode was alot nicer and I'm thankful my heart didn't fall out my butt this time!!! Love your work!! I'm obsessed with the coffee mug merch, international shipping, right?! 😉🇦🇺
Nikki Hearn
2023-12-11 15:51:19 +0000 UTCI truly appreciate two in one day but now I am forced to face the truth that the final episode is this week (in real life) and I don't have much left to watch with you both. I don't know whether to cry or cry a lot.
Sam
2023-12-11 15:09:22 +0000 UTCDOUBLE DROPS!!! OH WERE GETTING FED
Shamya Mckoy
2023-12-11 15:08:57 +0000 UTCNow, this is too much! Thank you Alex and Josh! Well, guess I'll be spending my evening in your good company. 😘 That is; If my heart can survive a double dose of FT!?! ❤️🩹
Stian Kristoffersen
2023-12-11 14:44:30 +0000 UTCWow Two in one day, Thanks guys! 😀
Ali Laura
2023-12-11 14:27:57 +0000 UTCBOYS! Have you just double dropped? 😱😱❤️❤️
David Watt
2023-12-11 14:14:57 +0000 UTCGeez Guys twofer today! Episode 6 is the first episode I felt I could breathe a bit. I’ll be back to watch this evening after work. PSA- episode 7 will need a little bit of 🪭 and a whole lot of tissues!
Diane Furlong
2023-12-11 14:07:19 +0000 UTCthat's 3 hours of soul destroying pain to look forward to watching tonight! i'm excited and terrified! 😍😬
ser brienne
2023-12-11 14:04:04 +0000 UTCWhat?! Two in one day?!!!! Thank you so much 🥳
Frances
2023-12-11 14:02:34 +0000 UTC
